Is this Democracy or a Pharaoh in the making? Your thoughts plea
author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 01:51



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Http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/20121122161830842641.html

Http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/egypt-president-mohamed-morsi-ruthless

Http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/protests-egypt-presidential-decree

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/world/meast/egypt-morsy-powers/index.html

This is a free for all test thread, teens and mods all invited. You still have to abide by the fundamental rules of debating, PnQ rules and avoid personal insults, abrasive language and going way off topic, or else.... if the mods don't, I will send you to the Buddha room...haha.

The qns here are:
1) Is Morsi still following democracy or treading towards autocracy, like Hosni Mobarak, his predecessor?
2) Is he abusing his Power? or safeguarding Egypt?
3) Did he learn enough from his US education? He spent a few years here doing his PhD at USC and taught at Calstate, Northridge.
4) Will the other Middle East countries follow suit and become fertile grounds for self-serving politicians, parties and fundamentalists, once they have been liberated from Dictators, and like minded narrow visioned folks (Iranian, Syrian,etc).
And this one is not on Israel/Palestinians, so save your energy, I will put one up if you folks survive this one and feel like having a second go at testing your debating capacity.

author: Michael D Nalley
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 02:05



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I will warn everyone I lean left in American politics . I have been told the Muslim brotherhood is considered conservative right wing in Egypt and they were split down the middle before the alleged power grab . I am not making fun of them, but it seems they cast their ballots and when it did not work out they tried stones . It is not that much different here except the stones come in the form of words here, and our leader is no more respected by many of the right wing . Princess I am sure you can forgive me if I have been misinformed by my media. Some are looking for a Pharaoh others are looking for a Moses

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 03:08



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You have a really good point here ALS and I think he isn't going to be anything the same as our former president Mubarak. lets come to the Rules he had set earlier, well they are working until the new Constitution is complete then they are invalid to use ( that make him controllable over everything for a period of 2-3 months maximum ) and I believe from what I see he set those rules to stop and take out the Corrupted part of the Judging tool here in Egypt cause they were part of the old ruling and they are as corrupted as it and to remove a corrupted judge you need the power of law to be in your hand and that is what he did and what he will have the next few months and once the constitution is complete he will no longer have those authorities.

author: The Princess
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 03:34



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Michael, I believe even I (and I live here mind you) am misled sometimes by the media. So, it's ok, it happens.

LS thank you for posting this - although I'm mostly on here to escape what's happening, mentally at least, I think I'll give it a go. Some people don't know the importance of this topic and the importance of Egypt on the international arena when we're talking about anything that has to do with the middle east. Egypt is both the key and example. It's certainly not a country to be run on trail and error, which is what's happening now.

You can not talk about Morsi without mentioning the MBs really - they're the ones who put him in office and they're the ones pulling and playing his strings. They're even protecting him from us: his own people. Which of course is creating tensions in the Egyptian street and is leading people to confront each other. It's rather disgusting what they're doing - they're turning Egyptians into pro-Morsi and anti-Morsi with his supporters loving his every decision and his haters hating his every decision which is not even logical, a neutral person would support some, even one, of his decision and critise the rest or vice versa; but we're not neutral.

I'd say this one is showing signs if a theocracy. I wish I'm wrong.

I believe Morsi thinks he's safe guarding Egypt (and Gaza, of course!) but, sadly, outcomes aren't decided by intentions. the MBs greater good does not have to egypt's best choice. These so called Islamic groups are former like a spiderweb all over the region and the have interests that are regional and much more important to them than just one country. It's complex.

That made me smile. It's so like Americans to think that an education in their country would change a person's mindset, that a stay in their country would do miracles. Well, all MBs especially their leaders have studied and lived in the USA for sometime, they also have visited and still visit there plenty and a lot of their families have the American nationality. It doesn't really change anything if a person's mindset is already set on something else by default.

I wouldn't say narrow minded - just different minded. Which is ok with me really as long as they don't force their values, moral and ideas down my throat. It's very hard to predict what will happen since each country has it's own set of circumstances, groups and whatnot. Although they is no denying that Islamists as political groups are stronger than ever now since they all pour into each other. I still hope other countries learn the lesson. Morsi's policies suck as much as Mubarak's, you'd think we're cursed and the problem is essentially us. It's depressing.

author: Lebanese Phoenix
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 03:54



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I have heard from some Egyptians that Morsi is treading towards autocracy, by saying himself that his decisions are not subject to appeal by any party and for whatever reasons, while Caliphs after our Prophet (PBUH) used to ask the Islamic nation to correct and evaluate their deeds.

So basically, this Arab leader, as what I can see and hear, is not safeguarding Egypt since, for instance, there are actresses/singers being prevented from enrolling in any movie/TV show/concert, and that bodes no good in the Egyptian society.

However, let's not be so pessimistic about this leader, for there is still PLENTY of time to prove his critics wrong. Let's give him space to understand that he is not always 'right'. Because as he has shown, he is still a raw citizen who climbed the thrown while the ground is still shaking. I mean that Mr. Morsi needs aid, especially in his body language, as all cameras and eyes agree. His actions and looks are still raw. I bet he never knew about body language tutors whom Obama and other presidents use...

Hopefully, he will work on himself and for the sake of Egypt. We don't need another Mubarak. We have a lot like him!

author: The Princess
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 04:34



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Max, i didn't want to go in to details since I dont think people here are following this closely but now that you've mentioned it, these powers should not be in his hands to start with. This is a country, it can not be run on implying good intentions to disasterous decisions or thinking that "the end justifies the means". We have frameworks and institutions that are to be followed.

Let me point some facts out:

1- Dismissing the prosecutor general and limiting his period to 4 years means that that person is no longer independent and is a servant to whosoever that can remove him from his duties whenever they deem fit.

2- He made his decrees unchallengeable by law, which means there is no longer a role for courts in this country when it comes to him. He can order to behead you and no one can go against him - which is about the least he can do. He's now unchallengeable to really everyone, the judicial branch was the final straw. Now no one can question him. He can drag us into war, he can bargain parts of the country, for a certain number of years or forever, for political gain ans we'll have nothing to do.

3- He made the constitutional declarations, decisions and laws issued by him final and not subject to appeal. Wel, it's not like me to curse but there is a not so nice word on the tip on my tongue.

4- Article 6 in the new constitution is the same as article 74 in the old one (constitution 71) with just the addition of "protecting the revolution". Which means the country being under emergency law, AGAIN!

LP, No singers/actors have been forbidden anything as far as I know. Actually we have a few 18 plus movies in the cinema now. There is a tv channel that has been closed though - Dream TV. Which is mostly talkshow programs and news discussions.

Caliphs are gone and can not be returned. It's a period that's ended. It's not possible nowadays.

We don't have plenty of time (as you put it) - this a country not a supermarket and we're 89 million with the majority being under the line of poverty. How many will survive his total economic ignorance and bad political decisions? The country is almost going bankrupt, investors don't have confidence in our market with everything being unstable and the economy is the last thing on his mind. I don't care how he looks or acts. I care what he does for this country, which is nothing other than praying a few prayers in each place and giving us speeches. I know he's a tool, still that's not how a country is run. We do not have any tangible future or even present policies and lets be serious, prayers - and how religious you are - does not feed hungry mouths or put bread on the table. It doesn't bring back those who died and are still dying for a dream that we're losing sight of. This is not what we've paid lives and blood for. This is not what parents and families have lost their children over - This is a nightmare.

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 04:49



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Well actually we don't have any frameworks, there was a revolution which means the old system with its framework and constitution had fallen so all the constitutional things are invalid and we can't deny the fact that even before he put those laws, he had all the authorities, he had both powers in the country, and he removed that guy cause he was corrupted and again Princess I say those laws are valid till the new constitution is complete so they won't work on anybody coming next. please don't rush you decisions and say it was totally bad well no it wasn't in my opinion, it had some part that isn't good because he is now a real pharaoh but oh well he was since the day he became president without a parliament. after all our opinion isn't all that important after all he won't change what he said because we don't like a part of it or all of it, we need to w8 and see what will happen. maybe we hate what he did now but we will find out it was for good later who knows what comes next =)

author: The Princess
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 05:07



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So he had a lot of authority anyway from start so no problem in having it all now and damned be the consequences? Pray tell what has he done to deserve more power? Or for us to trust him with more? A constitution should be formed by all national groups not just one group/person. You do not make a constiution everyday. This thing he's "cooking" is going to detrmine our future. Why do you think everyone has left? Because they like it much? Why do you think he made it unchallengable? Because we're all going to love it? So, ok, it's all been wrong from the start do we have to make it worse now? Turn a blind eye to it all? We do have frameworks and redlines we toppled the regime not the institutions - we're still a presidency (albeit a masked one) and the judicial branch, for one, should be independent. No one builds a country from scratch, Max. Not like this.

I believe you don't yet get how much of a mess we are in economically and politically. These have indecators, you needn't wait to see anything. It's all there and all coming our way.

P.s. we did not have a real revolution it seems. A successful revolution would result in real change - this? It's really not. Our revolution isn't complete, yet. It's been hijacked midway.

"After all our opinion isn't all that important after all he won't change what he said because we don't like a part of it or all of it"

Our opinion is more important than you can imagine, if you believe it does. Yes, to the point of him changing and uttering his decisions. We have a responsibility to spread awareness and knowledge - God knows I'd go on awareness campaigns again if I had the energy, heart and time as before.

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 05:20



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Princess 1st thing to say a real change is done through years not in a few months deal
take an example the French revolution and if you don't like French lets take the Russian one both took more than 10 years to make real change our problem is that we want everything in a matter of days
2nd please go read the drafts of the constitution then decide don't let anybody decide for you, I read the part about freedom and the president authorities both are great just have small flaws that are being worked on and many of those flaws are fixed in the past few days
and to surprise you all the people who left had signed as agreeing on those constitutional laws they later said they disagree with and you can make sure of that , so it only means they are putting on a show by leaving.
and 3rd yeah I trust Dr.Morsi for one reason he gave himself more authorities yeah but he also set a time limit for them.
can you give me a reason why he did that if he wanted to be a new Pharaoh??

Edit: yeah we really need to raise awareness cause right now media isn't the one to be trusted in raising awareness many rumors and lies are being thrown these days

author: The Princess
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 05:44



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Yup, the democratisation process has usually a three steps, the toppling of the old regime, the coexistence of both new and old regimes that includes a struggle between both for a period of time then either a complete new regime or a masked old one will return. In our case nothing's new. Same old everything, even policies. Same old lies. They didn't do a single thing they've said, what makes you think now is any different. They said they don't seek presidency - they took it. They don't want majority in the parliament, they've had it. They've set a 100 days plan with no tangable results and all lies. Now you want to believe the time limit? You think once he's had these powers he'll let go? Good luck!

I read the constitution draft, Max. I hate to brag but I'm a law student with a premasters in the faculty of economics and political science - So I'm more than capable and I wouldn't let someone decide for me.

Yup, all people with experience, political science faculty professors and legal experts and even independents are making a show and sobhan Allah almost no one is left but Islamists. Do I look like I have a tail? Am I supposed to believe this?

EDIT-- Anyway, I have a plan to catch in a few hours so I have to run. See you all in a week and a few days!

Oh, and by the way, I voted for Morsi in the second round. I thought at least he's not old regime like Shafik and he deserves a chance. Little did I know I'll live to regret it.

Let me say this though for the sake of this country and it's people I really hope I'm wrong.

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 05:55



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I agree about the presidency but in the parliament well is it their fault they got elected now? I don't think so and for 100 days trail well there was some progress not what we wanted but there was progress enough to make me believe we will reach something after 4 years oh and well why don't we w8 and see then Princess?? we have 2-3 months and after that we will see what is right and what is wrong =)

and my uncle is a law man too so? you are capable to decide for yourself, then explain to me what is your problem with that draft, I can use some explanation from another law person =)

as I said they all said they agree then they said they don't, I will call that a show off no matter what and btw I am not sure if Ayman Nour and other from AL Wafd and other political parties who didn't leave are Islamists
you can believe what you want and disbelieve what you want but as I said before only time will show us who was wrong and who was right

ok have a nice trip

author: Lebanese Phoenix
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 06:52



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True, Nourhan, Egyptians didn't spill blood just to get a replica of Mubarak. I totally understand your pain and agony. You do not want this shedding of blood to pay off to nothing, but as Max referred... revolutions shake countries after people overthrow their monarch. There will be chaos at first, with politicians racing to reach the throne by any means possible... It takes TIME to reconstruct a country.

And I'm just like you. I hope your vote was not just a lost echo in vacuum. If Dr. Morsi do not lead Egypt to the better, then God knows what will happen... You know, because countries around will be affected also, if not directly, then indirectly. Iraq was the strongest Arabian country years before it was destroyed, and now there was still Egypt left in the lead. I (We) consider it the massive nucleus of the Arab world. As you said, prayers can do nothing to feed a hungry mouth, but let's just wait and see. Morsi better be a real leader!

Have a safe flight.

author: dan
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 07:09



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What is, was predictable. Unfortunately the predictors were scoffed. Democracy unfortunately is a term that is designed to catch the unwary with their pants down. Catchy phrases, freedoms, for the people, things will be better, "I promise". All BS used by the conquers trademarks of the left element in today's world seeking powers.. Unfortunately words like good and bad have been skillfully interchanged. Democracy is no-longer the sacred condition for freedom. Hugo Chavez uses the term democracy to snow job his country. Yet he takes away democracy each time he is re-elected. Blindness has become the people.

When a country's peoples are drowning in poverty and true direction with no hope in site the easier the task for scoundrels. Blame becomes easy. Sad but true hope becomes the battle cry of the conquer. In then becomes so easy to show unwarranted blame. In America; "you are poor because of the rich". "Your are poor because whites hate blacks." " big business keeps you poor." Vote "me" and I will taketh from the rich and giveth to thou what is thouest that was taketh away." "we must destroy big business". soon America The United States will no longer be the leader of freedom in th world. We are well on our way to conpitchulation. 51% voted to elect the same who are stripping this country of "democracy". We are losing our republican form of government. Republican meaning, representative of th people government. there are those now who have no concept between representative form and democratic form.the founders argued for representative rule. And warned against to much power to few. But now its exactly what we are getting....a "for" the people government not "of". (sad) it's a sad thing to watch so many put so much trust in others to dictate what is when a country has prospered so long under a free form. A transformation induced by dumb-asses and greedy gim-me's who think someone owes them a living.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.24 08:07



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Off topic Donald. Stick to Egypt.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.24 11:13



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I am really impressed with the quality of the debate from everyone. Din't know that people from your part knew enough about the pillars of democracy, having lived under political repression so long. Keep making your points, love your knowledge on current issues in your region and debating skills. It will put many to shame, here in the US, where International news and events are not given a whole lot of importance, and children in middle & high schools learn little from the history and geography lessons........compared to those in British, Asian (India, etc, minus China) or ? Australian schools.
For those of you who are not in Egypt or the mid-East, and wondering who is Morsi, here is a bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Morsi

I have some qns, but will try to gain knowledge from you folks first.

And Larry, I think Dan is just making a point on democracy and its fallacies in general,from qn #1, so perhaps he could have his say too, but Dan, Larry is right, the Egyptian situation is in focus here.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.24 12:41



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Years ago, when I was in undergraduate, Gamal Nasser of Egypt died. He had been a major stabilizing force in the Mid East and the Western news media were hysterical in cries of doom. My mentor, a PoliSci professor named Fuad Mughrabi, came into class clearly upset. He lectured us on the presumption of the West as having a mandate as the beacon of democracy and the shortsightedness of the Western media in not properly assessing the democratic functioning of the Arab states. He pointed out that an interim president was already in place (vice president Anwar Sadat) and correctly predicted that a new president would be elected within a month and that continuity of government was the most likely, not the least likely thing to expect.

I see people who think that the exposure to Western culture is supposed to broaden people of other cultures and non-Christian faiths, somehow make them more tolerant. Let me point out that Osama bin Laden joined the Wahhabi movement BECAUSE of his exposure to Western culture: strip joints, free flowing booze, loose morals. That's how many view the West - as being in an unholy state of degeneration.

Now the Muslim Brotherhood has waited 84 years to take charge of Egypt, so do not think they are "winging it." Like bin Laden, the Brotherhood has previously demonized Western culture and the United States, Britain and Israel as monsters. MB leader Sayyid Qutb predicted almost forty years ago that Arabs and others in the states in the Mid East would rise against the degenerative influence of the West and return their countries to the traditional morals of Islam - that is, the traditions as the Muslim Brotherhood interpreted them. Today, the Freedom and Justice Party founded by the Brotherhood takes a publically moderate position. I personally wonder if the pragmatic recognition of the value of tourism from the West, coupled with historical ties the military establishment held with the West since Sadat, is sufficient to moderate the more fundamental elements of the party, including Morsi. Certainly, he has started out with a mixed bag: reaching out to Israel, yet condemning the Pillar of Fire against Gaza; speaking in Tehran against the Syrian government and calling for the opposition to unite; standing up to the military, yet then grasping unassailable power for himself.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 02:26



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Princess and Larry, and everyone else, your comments were very educational to me. It made me look up the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, its founding principles, its proclaimed aims (from Wiki):

"In the group's belief, the Quran and Sunnah constitute a perfect way of life and social and political organization that God has set out for man. Islamic governments must be based on this system and eventually unified in a Caliphate. The Muslim Brotherhood's goal, as stated by Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna was to reclaim Islam's manifest destiny, an empire, stretching from Spain to Indonesia." - the last sentence was a bit troubling, but those ambitious aims from the 1930's have hopefully moderated, since the 1970.
I also learnt that Morsi's party (Freedom and Justice Party) shares the same founding origins as Hamas in Gaza & West Bank, and Islamic Action Front in Jordan.....all founded by the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) movement.

So, my natural questions, would be
1)Would the 34 year old Peace treaty signed by Anwar Sadat & Begin, recognized by Nobel Peace Prize awards, be abandoned? Or are we going to see continued pursuit towards peaceful settlement of disputes by the Morsi govt.?
2) How do the educated Egyptian folks of today look at the wisdom of re-establishing Islamic law, if the party is successful in its proclaimed aim including the repression of women in the context of democratic principles, as against looking at modern idea of leaving the religion out and pursuing a secular way for governing a country, which is what democratic principles and democratization are about. Religion and governance do not exactly chime together. Do they?
3) Is Morsi going to reverse his decisions on his power grab or let the people's dissent bring him down? He doesn't really have a big hold on the military, like Hosni Mubarak or his predecessors, does he? All in all, does not sound very good, from the way things are going at the moment.

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 04:32



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ALS first words of Dr.Morsi is that he is going to keep the peace between Egypt and Israel and he won't break any agreements done with that country
and well educated Egyptians they are in 2 parties now one of them agree on working the Islamic laws cause they see it is the best for us right now and other say it won't be so good to run Egypt and we will see what will Egypt be after our constitution is truly complete and out for the voting and actually Islamic laws have no repression of women, you can trust me on this I read my Holy book a lot. and from what you can see there was a woman candidate in the Freedom and Justice Party elections for leadership after Dr.Morsi left the party, that prove my words right. so I believe that Islamic laws doesn't go against the new democratic principles I can assure that for you =)

and I don't believe he is going to reverse his decisions cause actually they came after he exposed a plot being made in the constitutional Court to take him of his place as a president that he won by fair elections so he took those decisions to stop this plot
and actually ALS not all the people in Egypt here are feeling bad with his decisions even from the courts there are some Judges who say that those decisions were important to protect Egypt form falling a part due to the non-constitutional age we are living in now and that is why he set a time limit to deactivate those laws he made.

author: dan
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 06:21



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Read from the beginning larry. Point is made. Egypt the subject. When all the upraise started it was because the masses were unhappy (correctly) with Mubarak) organized into frantic freedom seeking mostly young as is normal. Forgotten in creation was simply" what will replace" ?"what is our (the plan)? Have we a replacement ready"? All the while the world was only projecting "Egypt is on the verge of Democracy because people will rid the tyrants. When in course of fact. Culture prohibits "freedom" as in democracy. My myriad surrounds this condition. I will say right now and I do hope to God I am wrong but tradition bares negatives. There will be no freedom democracy anywhere in the middle east, greater middle east or anywhere until religion is put in perspective by which I mean a clear separation of cultural religion vs. true freedom democracy. It is impossible to have both. That is factual and through out history proven.
When I used America as a mold it is to recognize this fact of what is and what isn't. and not to even say ours is the answer but to lay claim that our founders knew religion must remain separate from rule. And lord knows how deep rooted the church was, yet! Cultures around the world can not claim unless they are willing to accept laws that protect all and shria'; Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or any other faction of a religion is put where it belongs, to guide, not to rule over and the freedom to chose that guide. Choice.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 10:30



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Max, opposition parties have concerns about suspending the judiciary powers and Parliament when the constitution is being re-written, rightfully. If the contribution from the judiciary, people's elected representatives with secular views (Parliament), and opposition is suspended by this action, you would have a non-secular, Islamic law constitution, like in Iran, which is against fundamental democratic principles. Egypt was on the road to modernization under Anwar Sadat, but now it seems the road to "freedom" is being challenged. Here is what the judiciary (and Princess) and the world are saying:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/24/egypt-judges-condemn-mohamed-morsi-powers

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/2012112511432479437.html

For those of you who would like to know what Morsi's decree was, here is a summary :
(from Al Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/11/2012112482649205402.html):

-President says new decree is aimed at 'cleansing state institutions'
-Decree allows president to appoint public prosecutor for a four-year term
-Morsi gave himself power to enact any law he wants
-Morsi's decree effectively sacks the current prosecutor general, which means no authority can revoke any presidential decisions
-Morsi has ordered the retrial of officials linked to killing of protesters
-Morsi's decree to remain in force until a new parliament is elected
-Parliament canmot be elected until a new constitution is in place
-Morsi also extended the timeline for drafting the new constitution
-Morsi says he has to have absolute power to protect the revolution

^ This is not what democracy is about, is it? No wonder why Princess and everybody not belonging to the MB were so upset. If the constitution is written using the Islamic law, you have already decided to go Iran's way. Iran, is also the biggest supporter of Hamas and The Freedom Party, is it not?

Egyptian author Ezzedine C. Fishere wrote: "The Brotherhood, led by the old and the hardliners, has managed to alienate its revolutionary and democratic partners and to scare important segments of society, especially women and Christians. Neither the Brotherhood nor the generals showed willingness to share power and both were keen on marginalising the revolutionary and democratic forces.

So, naturally we are all concerned the way things are going in Egypt.

author: Michael D Nalley
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 10:57



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The name "Iran", which in Persian means "Land of the Aryans",
There has no doubt been corruption within Brotherhoods for centuries
The Aryan Brotherhood has at times been up to no good
It is my opinion that there are politicians and dictators that will abuse brotherhoods and religion to reach hateful goals and I am friends with a former Iranian that would probably agree with me

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.25 11:08



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AlS as I stated before the media doesn't give the full image and I assure you that not all the people who don't belong to MB or the Islamic parties here in Egypt don't agree with that, actually some of them agree to those powers he gained himself and other didn't.
and again I tell you the constitution is just as modern as any other constitution in the world just w8 till it is out for voting and you will believe my words.
and I will say again all those laws he made were about stopping the plot that was made to take him off his place and since he protected himself from it, I am 100% sure he will let those powers go once the constitution is done as he said.
no need to be concerned really I see it is a normal thing to go back and forth on the road to development and since we are just out of a really hard era, it is even more normal to see this kind of things happening in the political life in Egypt. but I will again say we can decide nothing or say that he abused his powers or not until the constitution is out for voting and the Parliament is elected once again, only then we can say if he made a good decision by making those laws or not.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.25 11:41



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Max,
No offense, but when I hear someone spend several posts with essentially the same message, I wonder what more could you say on the matter. You have repeatedly insisted
1 - the media doesn't give the full story
2 - people outside the MB favor Morsi's actions
3 - wait and you will see it will be alright.

I'm not at all disagreeing with 1 or 2.
However, as to 1, there is a wide diversity of media from many viewpoints expressing concern with Morsi's actions.
Please send us a link to some media that favors it.
As to 2, who exactly in Egypt outside the MB is supporting Morsi's actions in these new rulings? What segments of society do they represent? Who exactly is against these actions and what segments do they represent?

As to 3, there are too many historical precedents of waiting until it is too late for me to agree with that argument. What exactly do you expect the new constitution to be?

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.26 04:04



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I am not offended at all Mr.Larry it is ofc irritating that I repeated myself more that 3 times even for me but in my defense I can't answer the same question with different answers every time.

yeah sure I can send you links to more than 30 interviews with politicians, judges and lawyers who aren't from MB who agree with the new ruling of Dr.Morsi but it won't be any help since they are all in Arabic but if you insist YouTube is filled with both links for people who agree and people who disagree.
and for the 2nd point to explain it for first people in Egypt right now are divided between somebody who agree and somebody who don't agree in all the segments of society, So there are many educated people who agree with Dr.Morsi and yet there are as much not agreeing, you see my point? nobody can judge if that very segment of Egyptian society agree or disagree with the new ruling and you can apply that to all the rest segments of society and there are some people who don't agree with all the ruling or disagree with all of it. but still if that doesn't explain me well and if you see it is still me repeating myself then I can give you names to political and judicial parties and names for famous educated people who agree and who disagree.

I expect it to be a good one. I am not a knowledgeable with constitutional laws cause I didn't study law but my uncle is a Judge and he explained to me the parts I didn't understand about it. like everything it have so small flaws but hopefully it is being worked on and we still have the choice to accept it or to say no and let them start all over again to make us a better one. so Mr.Larry I might be an optimist but I still say there is nothing called too late cause we always can make a change.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.26 09:33



[ post answer ]
Please give the links and specifics, Max. So far you have only given maybes and generalities. Don't worry about whether they are in Arabic so long as they are written.

What specifics did your uncle tell you about the proposed/in draft constitution?

Is he also in favor of all that is going on by Morsi? Is he a member of the MB? Are you?

author: Max
status: member
date: 2012.11.26 10:24



[ post answer ]
Ok Mr.Larry since you don't mind if it is in Arabic here is a link to the constitution draft

http://wiki.dostour2012.org/index.php/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%A6%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A9/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%AF%D8%A9_%D9%85%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1

and I will later get you like 8 or more links for interviews with politicians, Judges and highly educated people and some people who are knowledgeable with the constitutional laws who agree with the new ruling who aren't from MB but all in Arabic as I said

yeah he is in favor of most of the new laws he made and no he isn't from MB neither am I from it

Edit: Mr.Larry I really can't find a link with subtitles so I really believe that getting interviews will be useless, I will try to get you something written from the network channels but right now I can get you names for people if you want.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.26 10:47



[ post answer ]
Thank you, Max.
I note that the link is to plans for the drafting of the constitution; it is mainly aspiration rather than a draft. It simply says what will be covered in the constitution and who will be a part of drafting it.

I'm concerned about this portion:
"The judiciary in terms of the principles governing the affairs of this authority and judicial bodies and provisions relating to the elimination of the normal and the Council of State and the Supreme Constitutional Court."

Also, the separation of church and state is thrown out the window since it includes as partners in the drafting both Al-Azhar (Muslim religious institution) and the Egyptian church (Coptic Christian).

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.26 11:04



[ post answer ]
Here are the concerns voiced by analysts about the incorporation of more religion in the new constitutional draft.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/10/world/middleeast/draft-egyptian-constitution-adopts-a-role-for-religion.html

Clearly, it paves the way for "Shariah" the Islamic law to be incorporated in the future, an outdated ancient Muslim personal law that has no place in a secular democracy. The writer notes on Nov 9th (before the decree):

"But by keeping power in the hands of elected officials and civil courts, the agreement should also dispel, for now, the fears here and in the West that Egypt might follow the path of Iran's 1979 revolution toward a theocracy where religious leaders have the final say on all matters of state. "

...and Mr. Morsi seems to have done exactly what was feared, by getting rid of the forces that would have challenged the MB policies (liberal politicians and jurists) who want to keep the constitution secular.....he is beginning to tilt the power back in the hands of those (Salafi's and ultra conservatists) who wish to have a "Islamic supreme council" oversee the decisions of liberal courts........an Iran in the making, is what the world is seeing in this at the moment.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/will-new-democratic-egyptian-constitution-allow-9-year-old-girls-to-marry/

^This one is a classic example of what would happen if the religious powers were to take hold.

I wish Princess was back to debate this. Perhaps we should wait till she is back, as she is a law student in Egypt and would be familiar with the fine points better.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.28 02:20



[ post answer ]
I found these 2 articles worth reading as they seem to give a more balanced opinion on the pros and cons of Morsi's (good) intentions and (wrong) doings, and whether he was really trying to overcome a judicial stumbling block to get the constitution up & running or trying to pave a way for autocratic/Islamist rule.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-egypt-morsi-20121128,0,2250190.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews%2Fnationworld%2Fworld+%28L.A.+Times+-+World+News%29

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/27/15488387-egypt-learns-the-art-of-politics-amid-protests-challenging-morsis-decree?lite

And a sample of what will happen if the Islamists win this fight over the secularists in Egypt....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/egyptian-christians-sentenced-to-death-for-antiislam-film-3309388.html

Not 1 but 7 Christians sentenced to death! for Nokoula's misguided projections in an internet film. They probably did not have defense lawyers and may not be even Egyptian citizens anymore.

Beheadings and death sentences for political and religious freedom of speech....will be unheard of in the West, regardless of the crime. And Egypt wants to be called a democratic state, by sidelining its minority and issuing edicts! All the remaining Christians and any Jews left, would be heading out the door if the minorities are mistreated.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.28 15:00



[ post answer ]
Done Larry. Please delete this space . Thank you for your reminder.

author: Larry Chamberlin the Godfather
status: moderator
date: 2012.11.28 16:29



[ post answer ]
Please note rule 4:

4. Please use the "edit" feature rather than making consecutive posts.

author: A lonely soul
status: member
date: 2012.11.29 11:05



[ post answer ]
Http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/9711879/Egyptian-draft-constitution-to-keep-sharia-as-main-source-of-law.html

http://worldpress.org/feed.cfm?http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/29/252498.html

^ As suspected, the constitutional draft incorporates "Sharia" as the main law of the land. To be voted upon this weekend and ratified, by a non-democratic constituent assembly dominated by Salafi's and other Islamists (the Christian and secular groups already withdrew in protest).

The Islamist-dominated government is apparently fast-tracking the approval of a new constitution, one that is to be based on Islamic law, to beat a possible ruling on Sunday by the Supreme Constitutional Court to dissolve the constitutional assembly.

No wonder, why Mr. Morsi was so eager to take up supreme power to protect the new (Islamic) constitution from judicial review. Would anyone want to call this a democracy?


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