We're noobs in religious debates...now watch the pros

If you have the time..watch this debate...top draw stuff...

part 1
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCdnh7G87m4&feature=related

Very good Kev, thanks for posting this.

Just once I'd like to hear a completely unbiased response to religion. Not sure it's possible. You'd have to be an absolute saint (nonreligious?) to pull it off.

I love how that woman epitomized Umbridge. Harry Potter LIVES!

^^ Harry Potter Forever
(:

^^ <3

Is there such a thing as an unbiased opinion? It's all clouded with our own beliefs and formed of our life experiences.

No, probably not. Thus the saint. And a debate is probably not the best spot for an unbiased person, anyway. But wouldn't it be interesting to hear a completely objective discussion on religion? Pros, cons, basis... in simplest terms, without the undercurrent of discord?

It would be miraculous lol But yes interesting

Hmm, unbiased you say?

I don't think it's possible, because for it to be totally unbiased, it would probably be based in simple facts/dates and records, which would of course not favour religion, which is painfully devoid of such things.

Anyone who tried to look at the subject from a completely logical factual basis, would be accused by religious people of being a dogmatic science based thinker...or an anti thiest.

A +Theism = Nothing

Theism + God = Everything

Everything has not happened
So it is impossible to package
God in this cyberspace

I have no doubt that the one that has control of the facts /dates and records will win the debate, though I do not think we will find an honest witnesss to everything

In June 2010, Hitchens postponed his book tour for Hitch-22 to undergo treatment for oesophageal cancer.[135] He announced that he is undergoing treatment in a Vanity Fair piece entitled "Topic of Cancer"[136] and is now making himself the subject of experimental treatments with the geneticist Francis Collins who has taken an interest in his case. Discussing the treatment, Hitchens said that he recognises the long-term prognosis is far from positive and he said that he would be a "very lucky person to live another five years"

I cannot wait to watch the debate to see how much faith Chris has in luck

For those of you that have posted with no comment on the link Kevin shared it has more to do with the potential of the catholic church as a force for good

As one who has given support to the catholic church over the course of my life I do apologize for the short comings in the same way the anti theist may apologize for the short coming of medicine or drugs that may have had an effect on the lives of those who put there trust in such things

If someone was a contemplate such as Mother Teresa and devoted the best part of her life to the catholic church rather than putting it to good use as Hitchins did in spite of his love of smoke and drink she should be held to his standards also.

"I cannot wait to watch the debate to see how much faith Chris has in luck"

Maybe I'm reading your comment wrongly, and if so, then I'm sorry..but it looks as if you are taking some of of excited pleasure for his awful situation. Or, are you one of those christians who thinks his throat cancer is Gods wrath on his voice for his blasphemy?

As for this;

"As one who has given support to the catholic church over the course of my life I do apologize for the short comings in the same way the anti theist may apologize for the short coming of medicine or drugs that may have had an effect on the lives of those who put there trust in such things"

It's not your place to say sorry Mike, you didn't do any of the things the Pope should be saying sorry for. The worst anyone who is a christian could be accused of, is tacit consent, or not speaking up strongly enough against their church leaders.

PS, christians being responsible for their churches sins is not even in the same league as a person who trusts medicine being responsible for it's failings. I have no idea how you came by that comparision.

I cannot wait to watch the debate to see how much faith Chris has in luck"

"Maybe I'm reading your comment wrongly, and if so, then I'm sorry..but it looks as if you are taking some of of excited pleasure for his awful situation. Or, are you one of those christians who thinks his throat cancer is Gods wrath on his voice for his blasphemy?"

I have no excited pleasure about the fact that Hitchins has cancer and I believe the most logical thing to blame would be the smoking and drinking. I also know that Hutchins is a very intelligent author with much knowledge of science and I would not assume that he would appreciate my prayers or even offering my best wishes. Objectively the best any of us can hope for is to rot in the ground. He with Tinky-Winky: Christopher Hitchens is not a fan of the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, telling Cooper that Falwell would be in hell if such a destination existed. I do not find Hitchens to be all that repulsive and find it easier to love him than I would a Glenn Beck or Jerry Fawel but even the best of us will suffer and die

As for this;

As one who has given support to the catholic church over the course of my life I do apologize for the short comings in the same way the anti theist may apologize for the short coming of medicine or drugs that may have had an effect on the lives of those who put there trust in such things

"It's not your place to say sorry Mike, you didn't do any of the things the Pope should be saying sorry for. The worst anyone who is a christian could be accused of, is tacit consent, or not speaking up strongly enough against their church leaders.

PS, christians being responsible for their churches sins is not even in the same league as a person who trusts medicine being responsible for it's failings. I have no idea how you came by that comparision."

This is where I disagree . Charile Sheen has made enough money to support any lifestyle he chooses he still has the make the same choice any addict would .he can get locked up covered up or sobered up. If the catholic church has taught that the consumption of any drug to excess is
Socially acceptable than I would speak out . It is not my place to condemn the sinner but you may feel I am condoning sin by keeping the force of good that I know is in many churches to myself . I have said it before but I will say it again the authorities have abused the churches potential for good in the same way drugs are abused

Do you speak out against child abuse in the church? Do you speak out against the prohibition of Condom use in Africa killing tens of thousands of people? Do you speak out against the intolerance of homosexuality in the church?

I'm not trying to pick on you, just saying..you said you'd speak out if the church accepted addictions as ok...but there are many things they do accept which aren't good in any moral persons book.

I believe I have and if anyone doubts me than "for the record "I do not support child abuse, devises that prevent unwanted pregnancy or disease, or stripping anyone of dignity regardless of their creed, sexuality, race, or age

I really don't think you can compare medicine and religion. What I don't understand is if you don't agree with the doctrines of your church ( not you in particular Michael) why would you continue to support them?

Do religious institutions do good, yes, but that doesn't negate the areas in which they fail and continue to fail.

Child abuse is not a doctrine of my church The church has no political power in Africa I don't see how that anyone can say that a person who is fornicating would say "I think the pope will be mad if I use a condom while I have sex out of marriage, give me a break

My father died in a hospital, but that did not stop me from taking my mother to a hospital

The church is the mystical body of Christ and it is sad that all spiritual paths have been misdirected

The force that the cardinal talked about in the debate that kept him in an institution that has no gaurds, chains nor locked doors is a mystery many of us

I don't recall saying child abuse was a doctrine of your church.

"The church has no political power in Africa I don't see how that anyone can say that a person who is fornicating would say "I think the pope will be mad if I use a condom while I have sex out of marriage, give me a break"

Are you seriously trying to tell me Michael, that staunch followers of a church or any other institution that frowns upon use of condoms and preaches such to them, are not a contributing factor? When they preach that condoms will not help fight the Aids epidemic and will only increase the spread of disease, I have to wonder where theirs heads are truly at.

The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships, but apparently teach homosexual people deserve respect, justice and pastoral care. How is denying them acceptance in any way respectful or just?

If someone doesn't follow everything their religion offers, how can they actually say that's what they are? That's what I don't understand.

Lets ease up on Michael, look at the size of his head compared to his body, he is clearly, in a comic book terms, an arch villian..we don't want to upset him.

I think it must be almost impossible to really stand up to a religious leader, if you are just a regular church member. They spend every minute of every day preaching subserviance, and obediance and respect of higher authority...how could any christian really challenge that...even when, I'm sure a large portion of them know the vatican is letting some really nasty stuff fly.

I don't challenge my politicians, I'm too lazy and I don't feel, even if I did, they'd listen or care.

Ugh. I just wrote the longest thing ever to respond to this and ended up losing it because my session expired.
PnQ. Whoamygod.

Michael: I see you brought Charlie Sheen into this. Well done! We've officially caught up to the rest of the internet.

Edit:
I tried to salvage it. Can't do it.
Whatever I was going to say has now been deleted twice. Basically I said it was all moot, because religion is a reflection of human beliefs and morals and no one gets it right 100 percent of the time.

As to how you can be part of a religion without following it in all its aspects... I point you to the Jewish faith. They encourage asking questions, and forming your own conclusions. I guess they don't jive well with the blind faith rig.
And you can be a solid Christian who's down with gay marriage. Some of the messages conveyed by the church are confusing and contradictory. You might bypass the anti-homosexuality in favor of loving thy neighbor and his gay partner, and pink chihuahua. Why? Because there is just SO MUCH religion out there that at some point you have to take control for yourself and pick and choose what makes sense for you and what doesn't. The religious outline is handy for the basic moral code, but after that, you know... life tends to wheedle its way into the everyday solution.
If you want to be really creative, you can even make up your own set of guidelines. My grandmother attends a congregational church every Sunday, but is a firm believer in the Navajo religion.

Or you could be like this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOhD67028I
That's my kind of church right there. With some minor edits... gotta keep it unique. :P

I went to catholic school for eight years and I don't ever remember a nun or a priest ever bringing up the topic of sexuality

When I was married and my wife was serving a jail term . She got me to hire a woman to properly do what was needed to store her cloths. That woman called herself the wife of a woman that was serving a DUI sentence also.
This is going to get confusing , but the couple had a daughter that was from a previous marriage of the locked up woman . That woman in jail began to worry that her lover might get a little too familiar with me and ask me to assure her nothing inappropriate was going on between me and her proclaimed wife. While I` assured her nothing was going on with her I told her that nothing was going on between me and her daughter . I was shocked when she "now that is between you and my daughter" There may come a day when the church holds the same sex marriage sacred. but it is not hard for me to understand how families may find it harder to accept.

Lol It wasn't all directed at Michael, just my general curiosity.

Lol... I love how two people who actually represent church and State where schooled by a writer and a thespian... Classic!