Congrats Weekly Contest Winners 5.23

^I understand your frustration Bob ~smiles~
It is hard to define poetry but it has to be more then
a journal entry!^

Sorry, Abby, but "Sir Pearl" lost all credibility with me once he implied that my work was no more than a "journal entry." I found that offhand remark to be just as offensive as all the blustering and ranting of that other loud mouth.

You have done a much better job than I could at describing why this piece could be considered a poem. But, frankly, I could care less what label is affixed to it as long as it evokes some kind of emotion and gets the reader to think a bit.

"But, frankly, I could care less what label is affixed to it as long as it evokes some kind of emotion and gets the reader to think a bit."

Good stuff. Labels are for containers and most art is not concerned with containment.
Yeah, the 14-inched action around here can be a bit alarming, but damn, it's entertaining. Evocative. Sometimes, it's pure poetry.

Bob, don't get huffy.

Leave it to the mods to decide what is worthy of moderating. Continue your arguments about what is poetry and what poems deserve the front page, but you guys are wasting your breath (fingers, more like) arguing about who is being more disrespectful.
Some unnecessary meanness is being slurred around in all directions and from all directions.
"Clean your finger before you point at my spots." - Benjamin Franklin

Have to agree with Abby - at least this thread has a bit of zest ;)

Just like to clear up one thing. When I said "I think Bob could have been a bit more respectful in his opinion, but that's just trivial crap that should be ignored", I meant that Bob is gruff and blunt and doesn't always bother with courtesies. This can be off-putting for many, but it shouldn't be. I think it's important, in order to have a good discussion, to ignore the attitude and understand the motive behind it.

Bob was questioning a poem's merit by criticising its flow, its wording and enjambment. He was inciting discussion about what makes a poem a poem. That's good, meaty stuff. Pointless, but meaty.

So Bob, don't feel left out of this apparent "circle" that you see here. There ya go. I made room for you to join.

Robert, You & I have discussed Bruce Dawe before.

Enter Without So Much as Knocking - Bruce Dawe

Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
(Remember, man, that thou art dust, and unto dust thou shalt return)

Blink, blink. HOSPITAL. SILENCE.
Ten days old, carried in the front door in his
mother's arms, first thing he heard was
Bobby Dazzler on Channel 7:
Hello, hello hello all you lucky people and he
really was lucky because it didn't mean a thing
to him then...
A year or two to settle in and
get acquainted with the set-up; like every other
well-equipped smoothly-run household, his included
one economy-size Mum, one Anthony Squires-
Coolstream-Summerweight Dad, along with two other kids
straight off the Junior Department rack.

When Mom won the
Luck's-A-Fortch Tricky-Tune Quiz she took him shopping
in the good-as-new station-wagon (£ 495 dep. at Reno's).
Beep, beep. WALK. DON'T WALK. TURN
LEFT. NO PARKING. WAIT HERE. NO
SMOKING. KEEP CLEAR/OUT/OFF GRASS. NO
BREATHING EXCEPT BY ORDER. BEWARE OF
THIS. WATCH OUT FOR THAT. My God (beep)
the congestion here just gets (beep)
worse every day, now what the (beep beep) does
that idiot think he's doing (beep beep and BEEP).

However, what he enjoyed most of all was when they
went to the late show at the local drive-in, on a clear night
and he could see (beyond the fifty-foot screen where
giant faces forever snarled screamed or make
incomprehensible and monstrous love) a pure
unadulterated fringe of sky, littered with stars
no-one had got around to fixing up yet: he'd watch them
circling about in luminous groups like kids at the circus
who never go quite close enough to the elephant to get kicked.

Anyway, pretty soon he was old enough to be
realistic like every other godless
money-hungry back-stabbing miserable
so-and-so, and then it was goodbye stars and the soft
cry in the corner when no-one was looking because
I'm telling you straight, Jim, it's Number One every time
for this chicken, hit wherever you see a head and
kick whoever's down, well thanks for a lovely
evening Clare, it's good to get away from it all
once in a while, I mean it's a real battle all the way
and a man can't help but feel a little soiled, himself,
at times, you know what I mean?

Now take it easy
on those curves, Alice, for God's sake,
I've had enough for one night, with that Clare Jessup,
hey, ease up, will you, watch it --

Probity & Sons, Morticians,
did a really first-class job on his face
(everyone was very pleased) even adding a
healthy tan he'd never had, living, gave him back for keeps
the old automatic smile with nothing behind it,
winding the whole show up with a
nice ride out to the underground metropolis
permanent residentials, no parking tickets, no taximeters
ticking, no Bobby Dazzlers here, no down payments,
nobody grieving over halitosis
flat feet shrinking gums falling hair.

Six feet down nobody interested.

Blink, blink. CEMETERY. Silence.

Sorry for the delayed response, Queen.
"Http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/author.html?id=467467

Like him :D"

ABC? I only noticed him recently unless he was going by a different name before. Also, he has no poems posted.

Bob,

I am the one who penalized you. The words you said are considered bullying and will not be tolerated.

I'm choosing to ignore the blows at the mod squad, but I have something else I want to add to this thread. A bit of wisdom.

When someone makes posts on this thread stating a poem or poems is unworthy of the front page and the judges are unqualified, or suggesting that we should have someone who is *actually* qualified to mold members' minds, etc. - what you are implying is that YOU are a better poet, YOU are a better judge of poetry, and YOU know what you are talking about while OTHERS are lesser poets, OTHERS are lesser judges, and OTHERS do not know what they're talking about.
Pride is a sin :), but that's beside the point...
If you cannot sincerely admit or at least comprehend that your opinion is your opinion, and it's not a fact, and it's not more valid than anyone else's opinion, then you cannot possibly think people will be accepting of your criticism. They will think of you as arrogant, not as a humble peer.

It's difficult to win people over to your side when you start with condescension.
In which case, it's understandable why Kiko... or the other winners this week... or the judges... would be taken aback.

It's one thing to say, "I disagree with the judges this time, obviously we have different tastes because I would not consider Kiko's 'poem' a poem though it is a very nice piece of writing."
Instead I have seen one member suggest that the judges are bad, another suggest that the system is rigged and there is too much bias (which there is very little proof of - we have had a bigger variety of poems win in the last months than in the last years), and that the winning poems are not good enough.
I'm sure every member on PnQ has seen poems they think worthy and poems they think unworthy win the weekly. It's excellent we have so many different opinions! We also have very different judges who vote fairly and leave evidence of their assessment with comments. Judges are on rotation. If you truly can't stand the current judges, they will eventually change, then leave it to someone else to dislike the future judges.

We can't all agree, but respect the system. Scrutinize poems and give constructive criticism. Try to leave out the condescension. Disagree and be civil, not disagree or be civil. Diplomacy, mates. It's necessary for successful communication, especially on the internet. It's an acquired skill ;)

End.

Although I don't agree with Bob regarding Kiko's poem as unworthy of the win because as he states it as something lesser than a poem, which frankly I don't believe, I see it every bit deserving the win and actually I loved the piece so much I was almost envious. Still I believe he has all the right to state his opinion (which some did agree with and backed) and his appeal should be looked into.

Can't we just disagree without anyone taking some sort penalty, being thrown into the penalty box or thrashed?

All appeals are looked into, however, Bob's penalty is separate from this thread. The PM system does not give members permission to bully others, even if you are more likely to get away with it.

If you cannot be respectful in the forums, I advise you to avoid trying to be sneaky by goading members privately.

"You" being general.

"Can't we just disagree without anyone taking some sort penalty, being thrown into the penalty box or thrashed?"

That day will come when everyone learns to argue respectfully aka don't count on it LOL. So far this thread has been pretty free of censorship even though it's heated.

Well I guess lesson learned. No more PM's when people disagree on the boards whether good intentioned or not. I don't know about everyone but I prefer seeing whatever the person is penalized for is, especially with the appeal being in the hands with the person who penalized you to start with.

which reminds me, I thought the mod who issued the penalty wasn't supposed to be the one looking into the appeal? since you just stated above that you trust Sher's judgement and she stated that she is the one who issued the penalty.. did the rules change or Is my memory failing me?

Did someone say Sher will review the appeal? She won't. I can review it, or we can wait until the admin comes back to review it.

The appeal goes back to the mod who issued the penalty to begin with. On a fairness contention that mod then makes a post in the mod room and everyone votes.

The specifics of the penalties and why they were given will not be discussed with the general population. We do and we will continue to respect the privacy of our members.

Previous mods already knew that each appeal not immediately given amnesty is to be brought forth for all mods to vote on.

I'm sorry, but I think this thread is getting ridiculous. This thread is to congratulate the winners (I don't care if you like them or not, that's what the thread is here for), and great, I'm all for having a discussion to CRITIQUE the work posted... But that critique should be written in hopes that the poets critiqued will be able to consider what you say and hopefully learn from it. Instead, all I see is more political bs here, the mods did this, the judges did that.
If you want to complain about that stuff (which some people always seem to want to) then make a new thread. This one should be used to discuss the winners, the HM's, and the poems nominated last week.
Sorry to sound rude.

Each poem is indeed beautiful, Rob. There wil always be people trying to cause a stir, just for the sake of it. Such a waste of time to allow them to be in the spotlight;)

You are the one who just had to state your opinion and take away of the joy both the judges and the ones winning this round must have felt.

Indeed I stood up and defended my choice, I was the one who saw a winning poem.

I hope you find a new hobby really soon, you are becoming so predictable with your accusations about ass kissers and such. Who are you trying to impress? No one is bying this stupid stuff anymore, just re read this entire thread and try, at least TRY to see how most people feel about your behaviour.

I think everyone is entitle to their own opinion. As a matter of fact this win thing i find ridiculous. I am on here since years and it never interests me. I think the moment a poet put his or her words together and if even one person like it, then that poet is already a winner. I find too that most of the best poems that I have come across most times don’t even get a comment. I think we should all have the intelligence to accept other point-a- view other than wanting them to see things the way we see it.

Oh, goodness.

Yes, everyone can have an opinion. Everyone can even disagree with everyone else's opinions, if they feel the need. Where it becomes silly is when people start saying "if you don't agree with me than you're an idiot." That's not productive.

It sounds like people are pretty interested in being able to critique poems publicly. I think most parties agree there. I do, however, think it's a matter of consideration and respect to NOT publicly critique poems, at the author's request. I would assume that the point of critical discussion would be to give people ideas for improvement, praise where it's due, and to foster general literary discussion. In that light, if we are to go ahead with these threads, it will be important to keep the commentary helpful and constructive, otherwise we'll be wasting our time. We don't want to turn people off of poetry (and off of this site) by giving unsolicited public critique.

That was a long sentence. I'm going to try to paraphrase it.

"Nobody critiqued the poem because it wasn't a poem, but it wasn't a critique, but if it was then the author should be fine with critique, because critiques are what the comments are for, but there is too much praise for poems, but it wasn't a poem." Oof.

I think your sentiments against the "poemness" of the poem are interesting. If the person intends something to be a poem, what makes it not be a poem? Certainly, you could consider something to be a bad poem or a good poem, insofar as they do or do not complete your set of requirements that a poem ought to fulfill, but I think it's hard to flat out say "it's not a poem," when it's clearly meant to be one.

I think it's difficult to have a strict list of requirements for something so intangible. Maybe we have to categorize with the idea of a sort of "family resemblance." My brother and I take different physical characteristics from our parents. He and I don't look much alike, but we both look like our parents. Maybe it's the same with poetry. Free verse and sonnets don't bear much resemblance, but there's still something that ties them together.

If ever there was a poet... Sibs would be her name.

Kelleyana, there is only one solution to the problem you have mentioned. Take care to nominate the poems you think are worthy. If they aren't nominated, the judges won't know to review them for the weekly.

Isn't there a rhyming poem on the front page this week?

"^wow, why didn't we think of that....it's not even an obvious solution because we all know everyone can't nominate poems....duh"

Then PM me or someone else who is a senior member and ask them to take a look at the poem. I would gladly nominate poems for you or anyone who is serious.
As far as becoming a senior member to nominate poems yourself, it's easy these days... leave a few detailed comments on active members' poetry and you'll be one in no time :)
Especially if you do not trust others, it's best for you to take matters into your own hands. Do the work, become a senior, nominate poems you like.

billy rob, full discloser here. I read all of the nominated poems and voted this week to cover for an absent judge. My votes are those showing without comments. As you can see, I gave the highest vote (10 pts) to a rhyming poem.
Now what were you saying? :)
LOL, I happen to love rhymed poetry. I'm not any good at it, but I appreciate when others are. Also, thank you for complimenting me as a poet, that was very kind, but I have to disagree and say I'm generally pretty crap at writing. Above average at best.

Thread is full, going to lock it and start another.