Intelligent chat: determinism and free will

Who sides with which and why? if you no nothing about it, look it tp before answering please. JPM, I will invite you into this one, but i already know you are a free will kind of guy by your posts in other threads. Shank, you seem like a man in the middle, but I would like to hear all opinion's.

Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

I'm not fluent with the whole philosophy of determinism. But my issue with it is the whole similarity to the idea of fate. It's not that I don't like the idea that i'm not in control of my life, but rather, I DO have control of my life by the choices I make. We were given a free will. We may not control things like who our parents are, or where we were born, but choices do play a major part of where we end up. If we didn't like our parents, we might run away, or if we hated where we lived, we could move away. Or with a different example, a person who is obese may have genetic problems that causes them to gain weight easily, but it is their choice whether to maintain a healthy diet and exercise. Even if someone is holding a gun to our heads to do something, it's still our choice to let them manipulate us. And for those who believe in God, you might say, well if God knows our every move and every action we will take, aren't we basically living, breathing robots subject to fate? No, because He lives outside of time, and can see beginning and end simultaneously.

haaa...too much is an understatement. i've never agreed with the idea of fate and when that quote came out i was psyched. that movie provides a great parallel to many aspects of life. like if neo, right there and then, had taken the blue pill he probably would have never experienced what he did, or fulfilled that which he was destined to become. speaking of destiny, i believe God all gave us a destiny, but because of free will we can totally miss out on all He has for us.

for someone who is gung ho about spelling, you certainly aren't PC with your terms

This is how i can say that. In the post about music you said people have the free will to choose whether they want to listen to either the radio, classical, make their own, or some crazy experimental music. That is free will. Why would you say that if you don't believe it?

and what you are saying is called predeterminism. but predeterminism goes against full free will.

so in essence you either believe in both at the same time, or lied somwhere along the way

Yeah, like I said before JPM believes in a predeterminism and is perfectly fine. Lots of people believe in predeterminism. I happen to believe that even though we have an option to choose something when a choice is placed before us, that choice is not made just then at that moment. If it were possible to calculate out that person's entire history (where he grew up, went to school, friends he had, parents, what they like, tell him, the type of society he lived in) then someone could figure out what the person would choose before he chose it. I belive it isn't entirely free will. Our society, social beings, and other institutions and friends influence us to make the decisions we make.

jpm

I will pose question with a question:

What sense does it make to be uptight about spelling yet, to be so incredibly loose with your phrases and terms lol?

Perhaps ladies and gentlemen, we can keep the idea of God out of the free will debate.

Even assuming there is such a being, he/she would not create us just to act out some predestined script...that is boring, and shows lack of imagination and creativity..something you'd think a God would have Eh?.unless that is we are nowt but Mana batteries...har har.

And so, to the real power behind choice let us discuss ourselves...or as Alexander pope put it;

"Presume then God not to scan, the proper study of mankind is man"

I believe in free will tempered by the actions and learnings of the past. Theorectically we are all free to make ANY decision as a reaction to any situation...but in reality, most people will choose between only a handful of options based on the limits of their experience from previous similiar situations.

The beat up women choosing another abusive partner, the drug addict shooting up again...we are not as free as we may think...but we are not under the influence of any God or Demon either....

or something like that. Huh?

Flip sides to the same coin...what if it isn't your day to die, but you get on a plane piloted by someone whose day it is to die? You chose the flight, he chose to go to work, both of you will die, based on choices, unless of course you had no choice and simply did what you were intended to do. Circular arguement with no clear winner. I choose to believe that life has consequences for choices and as such I am the captian of my own spaceship. If I'm wrong, in the end, I may never know, but to live life thinking that it is already laid out for me, and I have no determination on the outcome sucks. Like reading the last chapter in a mystery before you read the first...what's the point? Wow! I think I suffered an anuerism working through that...but if I did, was by my choice to do this, or was it going to happen anyway? Who cares??? Either way I end up getting coloring books for Christmas.

Yeah, well most people would like to agree with ismail, and bill turner, and some with kevin murray, except for a couple bums that wrote that it isn't entirely free will. I think there names were something like Stephen Hawkins, Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg with his uncertainty Principle. They said things more along the lines of what Jpm and I said. I tend to side with Hawkins opinion onb the matter. Jpm has John Calvin behind him.

Has anyone thought of determinism as a simple extrapolation of cause and effect? You could say that we are the sum of all past events, or that on a smaller level that we are a sum of all the atoms in our bodies, and that each individual atom in our bodies were set in place through a series of past events. If you could plot the interaction and movements of all atoms in the universe, you could essentially see the future.

The only way I think you could get around it is something that has to do with quantum uncertainty principle.

Yes sean, which is exactly what I said, without getting into the scientific aspect of it. However, determism doesn't allow the free will aspect. I sit sort of in the middle along the same lines as you just said. That technicaility to choose, but if it were possible to calculate out everything we could know everything anyone would ever choose. That isn't entirely determinism.

Pah, you fools do not see the amazing insight of my last post because being ill aquainted with such astounding wisdom, you lacked the experience from previous encounters with genius to make the right choice and bow down to me.

Obey the cow....god!!!

I disagree with you as well Kevin. you cannot leave out God in this discussion, especially since, as JPM already pointed out, part of discussing determinism and free will is the aspect of predeterminism. I believe you can however often times leave out the person making the "choice" in the situation. Especially if one believes that everything is either predertimined or determined something greater. then the person doesn't matter becauser they are the variable in the situation. You could change the person, the background, where, when, it doesn't matter because God or whatever already set in motion what would happen.

On the contrary my fine fellows, we can and should leave the idea of God out of anything to do with humans and the choices they make, if not for historical reasons then for here and now rational ones.

What you are basically creating by including the idea of God in a discussion of this kind is an unknown variable, thus making any argument based upon and linked to that variable unsound by association. Do you get that i'm saying? Any potential answer you may come up with that includes God in it's inception will be ultimately flawed due to the supposed nature of God.

I can side with either the free will idea, or even the determinist theory, and most people can rationally see how these two philosophies can practically and rationally be a medium for explaining how we humans live. God is not like this. Including God in a discussion about free will and human choice is tantamount to saying that we are going to include an unfathomable and infinitely incomprehensible being into our little chat and come out the other end with an answer that will be even remotely ok.

Ok...who is first to work this one out kids?

Go on then...i dare ya.

bill turner: i think that was a good analogy. i, too think i am captain of my own ship, and the choices i make, lead to the consequences of my actions. but who am i to say.

Umm, first off Kevin, a variable is an unknown. So by calling God an unknown variable then you are calling him an unknown unknown. And whether or not we know his nature has nothing to do with someone's opinion of whether he planned out our actions and lives. You want to call him evil, whatever, do you think he planned everything outright. You want to call him all knowing, or weak and powerless, I don't care, do you think he planned everything out. I don't know anything, and am weak and powerless and I still try to plan out my day. And hell yes, i am down right evil sometimes. By someone thinking that God predestined someone's choices is no different than saying society and influences predestine someone's choices. Why? Cause they are both powers greater than yourself. Another thing, man is as much a variable in the situation as you presume God is. Why because of how different people are. Man would only be a constant in this equation if someone could tell the future for sure. But as I said those calculations are impossible, neither do we have the mathematics to do it but we neither have the time to nor do we know everything to take into account. And for that reason God is as much of an option in this conversation as society, yourself, and other things that are thrown at us during life. If you don't believe so then go read some of the great physicists who believe he has every right to be in this conversation.

to back up what I said in the previous post Kevin, if you read Einstein you will realize that the only constant in the entire universe is the speed of light. So, you can't rule out God just because you think he is a variable when everything in the universe other than the speed of light is also. That includes both you and me. Why are we variables, because things in the earth and life, except for the speed of light, is relative. It depends on the observer and where the point of reference is. Why? because that then would be the center, or point of reference. However, depending on who is observing and where the center, or point of reference is changes. It is relative to the observer. Don't believe me, then go read Werner Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It states that the speed and position of a moving particle can not be be calculated at the same time. You can only find one at a time. Therefore, if you claculate the speed of a particle then you can't find its position, but if you calculate its position you cannot find its speed. Why, because it is relative to the observer. If you say it is going this fast or that it is here, someone else watching the same thing from a different point is saying that it is going a different speed or that it is here. Why because we all consider ourselves the center of our universe. Here is another example. If you were in space, and you saw someone coming toward you at the same time and speed you were going toward them, it would appear as if they are staying still and you are moving, but from their perspective you are the one staying still and they are moving. Don't believe this example, then go read Einstein cause it is his.

So how do we put this into a real life situation? easy. Let's take something everybody has seen in the news recently. Picture an Al Quieda extremist who believes that if he sacrifices his own body by blowing himself up to kill many infidels he is furthering the worship and will Allah. So he walks into a big bus station in some over populated city, let's say London (since that happened recently, but I am by no means trying to piss you off, nor do i condone this sort of action), and blows himself up along with 46 infidels. According to his belief he goes to heaven and gets so many virgins or something like that, and all the time he did it because that was Allah's will for him. Then hell yes, Allah (God) sure as hell had a huge part in that. I would go as far as saying Allah predestined that for him because he believed it. And he is the center of his own universe.

To us, it was a bunch of bullshit and a crime against humanity. We believe he was decieved by a raging lunatic who hates people. So to us, no Allah did not predestine him for that because he wasn't listening to allah but a crazy man. But our opinion is also relative to us because we are the center of our universe. So at the same time Allah (God) both predestined his life and did not. So you cannot just say that God has no part in this discussion. You can believe that God doesn't predestine people, but you can't make that statement for everybody.

Cory, i didn't say anything about God being evil. All i said was that the idea of god...any God, should be left out of a discussion on free will because God has nothing to do with free will, nothing. It's people that control free will, their own and other peoples.

To use Suicide bombers as an example is only proving my point. Because those people are brainwashed by military extremists for months...sometimes years into believing they are spiritually justified and will be rewarded...it's people who get them to think this way...not any God...and more importanly...it's people who write all the religious texts the world over...not any God..despite what some of them maintain...

It's people who preach religion, not any God...it's people who do everything in this world that involves our belief...and so, as i said before...we should only discuss the human aspect of this issue...and not the POTENTIAL divine influence....as that is wholly unprovable and historically appalling.

If you want to discuss this further, can you try and keep your posts simple in terms of focussed points as i ain't that smart and i find tangent rants hard to follow.

Ta.

Yes Kevin, you are right that we do not have to include God in a discussion about free will. However, this post is not entirely about free will. The topic was about both free will and determinism. Because this topic speaks freely about both (predeterminism being a type of determinism) you cannot leave out God.

And the example about the suicide bomber proves your point no further than it proves mine. Your opinion is that he listens to the maniac while the bomber believes he is listening to Allah, and because neither of you can prove either way both must be taken into account.

Well i can leave God out of a discussion about free will...though i've had to include the old boy up til now..no more...i'll show you juat how easy it is.

And as for the suicide bomber thing. well, if you think about it logically, these people aren't born with the will to kill themselves for Allah...they are taught it..by....wait for it..OTHER PEOPLE!..wow...did you see how i did that? Yeah they might believe they are doing it for God by the time they get down to it...but you are not taking account of the years of brainwashing they go through to get there...nothing to do with God all that....just people like i keep on saying.

But maybe God is making me say all this to test your faith.

Uh huh...

I believe both to be true, both determinism and free will.

Obviously, because of the way time operates we gain knowledge and history as it proceeds. We have no way to gain insight into what we have not experienced yet, so moment by moment we have free will, creating out pasts in each second of the present, which is a minute (the adjective, not the noun) buffer between the future and the past. Pretty obvious stuff, now lets talk about destiny and pre determination.

The unknown makes people uncomfortable. They don’t want to believe they have no control, so they push aside the possibility of pre determination. It's easy to do so, considering we THINK we have free will, as we are making up our own minds instant by instant, yet, how are we not to know that this is in fact an EXPERIENCE, like a dream, or like the matrix, as has been brought up previously in this thread. We don’t, and ultimately we wont know until this is either confirmed or debunked, which someday it may be, depending on your view of the afterlife.

It comes down to being a question of faith and what makes you FEEL more comfortable. Are you more comfortable believing that your destiny is in YOUR hands alone? That a "God" of some sort is helping you out or that he has a plan for you? Or that both coincide perfectly, because in the end you end up where you end up because of the choices you've made, so does it really matter?

As long as you don’t KNOW your destiny, your choices will lead you there regardless, so it doesn’t MATTER if our free will is pre determined.

AND, by the way, you cannot say we don’t have free will, because we DO have free will. You're making up your own mind; no one is controlling your thoughts. You CAN, however, say that our free will is pre determined.

Not that i demand conformity to my ideas. But no one seems to be grasping my basic point. That yes i know that in line with the way the issue and idea of God is saturated into every level of our social lives and mental schema's, ignoring the idea when discussing free will seems short sighted.

All i'm saying is that perhaps we should attempt to discuss this matter without reference to that strain of thought...in all honesty because i don't think it adds anything in that i often find that "God" is used as an arguement filler where lack of orginal thought exists with the speaker.

All that mysterious ways crap, and how we are too crap to understand his infinite wisdom...what a crock.

lets talk about humans and all we do understand and leave God to his fellow Gods.

How does one speculate about determinism without reference to God???

I dont know if it can be done.

Kaitlin my dear, you are the last person i would have expected to say that.

It is simply a matter of recognising that God, being far too vast for us mere mortals to comprehend, should not be included in any equation that will have an effect on how we act. You guys might be happy to base your life choices on a supposed diety that cannot be fathomed in any regard...but i sure as hell ain't.

It's not like mathmatics where you can have an unknown quantity and work out what it is from the other numbers by inferal...God should not be included in this discussion. If you guys don't agree with me then fair play. I'll deal with what is real and known..and you lot can talk about theorectical crap.

I believe in Free Willy! The film was fab and suitable for the whole family - good wholesome viewing

That is exactly what this post is, theoretical crap. I agree with your there Kevin, cause in the end it doesn't matter what you think, it only matters what actually happens in the real world. However, this theoretical crap makes great conversation.