God and Jesus

I do not believe in God as the theory of the bible, about how the world and humanity came into existence, is to me, so amazingly unlikely and unscientific and improbable, that I just can't bring myself to accept it.

Nothing in this world that is complex, like you must admit, God must be, as we are as humans, just comes into existence with a shazaam! Nothing!

Everything grows, or is made up of small component parts. If it is alive, it grows slowly, changes, and, dare I say it, evolves over the course of time and generations.

Now, if there was a God, and he/she is complex enough to create our known universe suddenly, or in 6 days, you would have to assume that either he/she is the product of a very large evolutionary or growth process that made him so complex he could do such a thing, or that he shazaamed into existence at the behest of something else faaaar more complex than he is.

In either case, the bible is wrong, and because I know the bible is wrong, i can't believe in any of it.

I believe in a god and a devil, but the thing is.. I do not worship either of them, that's just how I am. I have very strange beliefs. I don't think God is the ruler and the father of everything but I don't believe the devil is any better...

I believe in God and always will ,because he has helped me become a better person than was,but thats my belief
and I don't want to offend anyone by it.

"In either case, the bible is wrong, and because I know the bible is wrong, i can't believe in any of it."

Haha! Kevin, that logic is astounding ; )

Actually, Kevin, I'm going to use your post as a springboard for my own opinion, here. It's interesting that I use basically the same evidence as you, but end up at the almost opposite conclusion... I -almost- completely disagree with you, but I get the feeling that you do put a lot of thought into the opinions you form, and I respect that. I like it when people are actually willing to think.

To me, the fact that simply -existing- IS so "amazingly unlikely and improbable" is the thing that leads me to faith, perhaps more than anything else. I think about the absolute ridiculousness of the world, the fact that anything exists at all, and I simply can't put it down to random chance. I believe that evolution is how things come to be as they are... but even the most scientifically-minded tend to hit a wall when it comes to the primary point of creation. What set all this cosmic mess spinning in the first place? An atom, appearing out of nowhere? A Big Bang? God? You condense the Big Bang theory into one line and it ends up sounding rather similar to "In the beginning, there was God." Both from "nothing," apparently. But the reason I fall to the line of God, and not to chance, is because I see intention in the universe - I see meaning, I think that there must be at least one constant, and that would be God. A Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I was raised Lutheran, so maybe that got me started on this "God" path. Though... I've always been a bit of a heretic. When it comes to the Bible, I get a bit indecisive. I believe in Jesus, but the church that has grown up is a human institution, full of human glories and fallicies. As abby said, in her quote, I don't really care whether the universe was made in 6 days or 60 billion years... the simple fact that it is here at all points me to something more than an accident.

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My kitty is sleeping in a sunbeam. The sun exists. My cat exists... life is pretty sweet, isn't it?

The bible may be wrong, but it gives lessons to learn from, and believe in. I am Catholic and know as well that not everything is true, but it gives encouragsment in other things.

Hey Sibyllene,

thanks for responding, let me address some of the points yo brought up.

"I think about the absolute ridiculousness of the world, the fact that anything exists at all, and I simply can't put it down to random chance"

Well, evolution isn't random, I'm going to assume to have read some Darwin, or at least know the basics. There is nothing random or lucky about natural selection, it is the opposite of lucky and random. We humans are imperfect did you know that? We are still quite new to waking on two legs, and as such, many of the back and chest problems we experience are the results of our bodies still catching up with the adjustment of evolution, which, I'm assuming wouldn't be the case if God made us in his image.

I know that no one, not even Stephen Hawking, can be sure about tha absolute start of the Universe, if there ever was such a sudden and violent beginning. But to me, that is not the point. Even though science cannot say 100% for sure how the universe began, it can, using the knowledge we have today, make a guess, a highly educated and well researched guess [sometimes called a theory! LOL] which to me, holds far more weight than the idea an unseen divine entity created everything in a few days. It's about what is likely and probable, based on reality. I'll say again, nothing as complicated as human beings can just poof into being, NOTHING on this planet works like that. Science supports this view. You can apply this to the creation of the universe too.

Science is not some evil heartless enterprize intent on crushing all faith and belief. Science is about what works, what can be proven or justified, and that to me is a worthy goal, and one I'm sure, if there was such a thing as God, he would be pleased I'll bet to have his children doing everything they can to prove or disprove him....it shows a desire for truth, for meaning, all honourable things.

I believe that if you take the bibles viewpoint on creation and human purpose, you are without a doubt closing yourself off to the future possibilities in the same way that Religion tries to hold back science that threatens it, so do believers try to disregard evidence and educated theories about things for which, a 2000 year old book hold holds all wisdom.

I could go on, but really, when you add it up, and I mean honestly, religion and the bible just don't stand up to the light.

Hey, Kevin, thanks for answering!

Glad you called me on the "random" point, actually... looking back, I did sort of give the wrong impression of evolution. What I meant to portray was that I DO think evolution is a fact, and follows natural laws, but I don't think that the fact that the universe exists is chance, which is what my understanding of the current scientific theory seems to say. After the very first point of existence, science does a fairly good job of describing the physical order of existence... but still when it gets down to that first point, there is no definite theory, even. Maybe there will be one eventually - there probably will be. But my basic idea is that I think there is a reason for things existing. I exactly agree with your point that humans can't just "poof" into being, heh heh, but from that idea I draw the idea that there is some intention and purpose for it, and we don't just exist off some lucky chance.

I don't think the Bible is infallible. (This is where I'm a heretic Christian, I suppose.) I think it contains great wisdom, but I don't think God can be contained within a book, even if He did possibly have some say in what went into it. When it comes down to it, I know that the Bible was written by humans, and will have human errancy and lack of understanding.... but that does not mean that it can be totally disregarded. The best parts of the Bible worked as a basis of morality for thousands of people for thousands of years.... unfortunately, the Bible was also used as a tool to do evil things. Same goes for organized religion, another human construction. For that reason, I think correct interpretation is as important as anything, and people should rely more on God, and their own rationality, instead of a book. It can surely be taken for the wisdom and history it encompasses, but we should not limit our knowledge to it.

I never would think that science and religion are necessarily opponants - especially when religion is considered by the definition of faith and nurturing of the spirit, and not simply as an institution. After all, I believe science and myth are both after understanding and truth. They go about it in different ways, certainly, but I think in the best world the two would be fused, as if again belonging to the all-encompassing "philosophy" of the Greeks.

The problem comes, I suppose, when the wrong sort of people use scientific facts to force a moral law, or vice versa. Francois Jacob has an interesting essay on this subject from "The Possible and the Actual," if you haven't read it. (Or if you have, I suppose it's still interesting.)

At their worst, Science is arrogant and soulless, Religion is dogmatic and fanatical. At their best, both are curious, driven seekers of purpose and knowledge. I see that as a good thing ; ).

Hey Sibyllene,

that was a lovely post there, really nice. You are one of the few Religious people I know now I have no need to be scared of in terms of the effect your faith might have on social policy and opinions of right and wrong. ace.

I guess then we both agree on evolution, so lets move to the start of things, which is either the big ban theory [the best we have I think from Science] against the divine theory that God started everything off[ from the bible]

If we can just focus on this one thing we might share an understanding.

If you accept evolution as the natural way things grown and change then do you think that God started that off? Do you think God set a spark or something that kickstarted the first single celled organisms which eventually evolved into us? Or, do you think when he magicked the Universe into existence, he knew life would come from it because he invented evolution?

I ask these questions because, I find it curious that you acknowledge both the science of evolution, but also the divine magick of God, and you see no problems, logically putting those two things together.

If you accept that evolution is the way of the world, then it's not unreasonable to assume that you think that Evolution is the way everything grows and becomes what it is, plants, even planets seem to change and evolve slowly over time [see the shape of the continents!]

How then can you justifiy the belief that God is not a product of evolution himself and that anything can just be started by some divine presence suddenly?

I know there are lots of questions in this post, but you answer as you please, I'm not going to bust your chops about any of this....I like the way you write so no worries.

Hmm. Ok, I've spent a little while trying to figure out how to answer this... it might be a little messy.

First off, I do believe that God started things off. The Big Bang theory simply stops short of a real beginning. Where the theory says "things started. ...Because they did..." I would say "things started because God existed," or something. But I don't think of God as a big old man in the sky, "inventing" things like evolution. I'm not going to really be able to... elucidate God, I don't think. But I do think He knew where some things were headed. That comes down to the idea of believing that existence has a purpose. So, to both of your options, I'd say yes ; ). I think evolution gives the -way- things come to be, as you say, the process, but I think God gives the -reason-... the why behind the why.

I suppose I should give a warning lable on this package, though. These are some of my beliefs in God that base themselves on rationality (or at least try to, lol) but there is another part of my faith which just exists because I cannot help but to have it. I believe in God with a feeling that exists outside of what is simply my conscious mind. I can't look at the world, look at humans, and not see God in it. I've tried. I've failed. It's either an irrational belief, or else it is completely rational, and our understanding now is what is irrational. : ) So, I guess my point here is... I'm not going to be able to prove the existence of God. I can give some reasons for why I think some things, but God's existence is not going to base itself off of someone's arguments.

Hope these answer a couple of your questions. I'd also be interested in hearing some about your beliefs. Have you always been athiestic/agnostic? Or did you go through the cycles? Where do you find meaning in your life? Feel free to answer or not, as you will.

Sibyllene, I really appreciate your honesty and lack of ego, really I do, it's an inspiration to be sure.

I do not want to press you on anything you said, or some of the questions from last post you didn't answer, I know there was alot of them!

Can I ask were you raised to believe in God? I think that makes all the difference.

I know what you mean about the absolute beginning, it's very difficult to figure out whether it was God or something else, perhaps natural as yet undiscovered phenonmenon. The point for me is that Science is still trying very hard to answer all these questions, that and many more, many of which pertain to religious matters.

Religion I'm afraid cannnot be said to still be searching for the truth, even though the religious theory of the start of everything is not nearly as likely, based purely on logic and good reasoning as the scientific one.

If Evolution and the big bang theory were disproved tomorrow, or if someone came up with a better more likely and better researched idea, people of good thinking would abandon the old ways of thinking and go closer to the truth. All good scientists would do this. Religious people do not do this. They start out with the belief that their faith and everything in it it totally true, and anything that treatens of contradicts that is false, and nothing is researched in a scientific manner to prove anything about what they believe.....they believe because they believe.

That to me sounds idiotic, no offence.

I do not have beliefs in the same way you do I think, I have understandings which guide my actions. I understand a fair bit about psychology, sociology, philosophy etc, and I have faith in my fellow human beings because of these things, I know what they can become if the right circumstances are present.

I believe in always questioning things, but not to the point of being anal about it, life is meant to be lived, fun and learning should go hand in hand.....I believe in an idealist world of peace and harmony...I believe in myself....

I don't beilieve in god, but i respect anyone who does. i beilieve everyone should be proud of what they beilieve in despite what others think.

I believe in God i go to church help with the church but i am a normal screw up type person..... many people have heard me talkin about my mistakes on here so goin to church dont make ou crazy or all holy it just makes me happier.... it gives me a way to get rid of my stress.... and i heard somewhere that it isnt what belief you have that is important it is that you have faith...... i dont preach to people or yell at them some of my friends are atheist some are agnostic so i mean it doesnt really matter to me but i know there is a God and i know he loves me wether you know that or not is between you and God not me and you...... but if you want help with anything religious i can help you out i love church sorry but i do.....

Hey again Kevin! I'm glad that you keep responding to this. My friend that I usually debate with is studying in Europe for a month or so without a computer... his absence and the lack of my usual philosophy classes have already begun to make my mind lazy!

To your first question: I've gone to a Lutheran church for basically my whole life. My mom, however, was Catholic, and my dad Presbyterian, I think. They went Lutheran when they moved to my hometown because they knew people at that church, heh heh. My parents thought that it was important for me to have a spiritual understanding, but they always just wanted me to find my own truth, I think. In addition to being religious, though, my parents both have pretty scientific backgrounds. My dad has taught biology for about 20 years, and my mom deals a lot with developmental physiology and psychology. It's all pretty well-rounded. So I was raised... by parents who believed in God, and who wanted me to discover my faith for myself. I have to say, I'm still very much in the process.

"If Evolution and the big bang theory were disproved tomorrow, or if someone came up with a better more likely and better researched idea, people of good thinking would abandon the old ways of thinking and go closer to the truth. All good scientists would do this. Religious people do not do this. They start out with the belief that their faith and everything in it it totally true, and anything that treatens of contradicts that is false, and nothing is researched in a scientific manner to prove anything about what they believe.....they believe because they believe.

That to me sounds idiotic, no offence."

This was a really good point to make, because I think it highlights a negative tendency on the side of religion. You say that, given stronger alternative evidence, good scientists would change their theories. Bad scientists, however, can be as dogmatic as bad relgionists. But where good scientists would change based on proof... so too would good people of religion, I think. Those religious people who think they know all the answers, and so wouldn't change despite the alternative evidence, seem to me to be falling prey to the exact hubris that I'm sure they'd preach against. But a person who is honestly searching for truth, even religious, should not balk at change whenever it is good. I agree with your point that religions start out with a big picture, a set of beliefs, etc., but I don't agree that all religious people are unwilling to change them. For example, though most Americans claim some sort of Christian faith, we no longer condone slavery, subjegation of women, and other things that the Bible spoke of. Instead of becoming close-minded, I think you can find in many believers the same sort of intellectual humility that seems apparent in scientific process, where you can say "we certainly don't understand everything... but we're still trying." Where there is a clear moral reason to make a shift in understanding, it should be taken - whether in science or religion. I think of St. Augustine who, though shocking to modern sentiments in many ways, seemed to spiritually prosper greatly by examining his own faith. If a faith put to the light of reason disappears like smoke... then of what worth is it?

Your last two paragraphs were right on : )

I believe in God and Jesus ^^

Abby! Your post was lovely. You expressed very well a lot of the things I wish I could say more eloquently. I think it always does happen at the wee hours of the morning...

"Mystery is the truest emotion we can feel. This is what lies at the heart of all science, art and religion, even when it is combined with fear. If you do not know it, or acknowledge it, you might as well be dead. This knowledge of a seemingly impenetrable and beautiful existence which is only comprehensible to our reason in its most basic manifestations constitutes my attitude to religion- in this sense, I am a profoundly religious person."

And that.... is exactly it. I don't care if people believe in Leviticus, chapter 2, or a great flood, or wine into blood... I don't care if they ever sit in a church pew... but if people can understand THAT^... then I think they'll be alright. To me, that feeling, or way of experiencing the world, fits in perfectly with how I think of God, Christ, and religion. People tend to think that's weird... but it's really the only way I function, so too bad!

Oh, actual non-fighting discussions make me so happy....

I believe in Blind faith...

The reason to why is, that it helps make this vapid existance more livable...

I mean for you and I, it may be an extravagent choice, but for many living...Or should I say surviving...It is a "MUST"....

My best friend, who is Ugandan, who founded an organization to helping children reared families (especially) and family that are living in desolation. And telling me how they survive, living on water, that they gather further away from their home, I ask her, how do they survive it every night..

She tells me, that they wholeheartedly believe in the word of the Lord, and that the lord will bring them salvation.

Now I myself have questioned that premise, but I am free to do that, because I have the necessities and the indulgance that many people out there crave.

Religion or should I say believe(Blind faith being one of it), is a mode for survival...

Religion may have it's fallacies, but it brings hope and ease to many people..

I believe in God,in Jesus as his son ,I have questioned ,searched , looked for answers, and came to the conclusion that in my heart I believe in him.

I belive that you will go to heaven if you are good, and hell if you are bad. but i also belive that if your good and bad are equal that you go back to earth, almost as like a ghost that only the person you hurt most can see and you have to give them the best days of there lives and then you can venture of to heaven and if you you dont help them then you will go to hell

I believe in God (higher power, creator of the universe deal), Jesus (historical figure, prophet, son of God, eh, sure, why argue? he didn't hurt anybody, not really), and the Devil (the mythos of Satan, and as represented by the manifestations in the world that prey on our weaknesses), I don't judge people though. I'm guilty too. "may he that is without sin cast the first stone", I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I am 'without sin', so I can't say which ideology is best (that only creates war) or that I am right. The afterlife, I have no idea about. It's not my place to say.

I do believe in Jesus Christ and I believe that once you have asked forgiveness and you have repented of your sin you have redeemed, with no other word choice available right now, your place up in heaven. I also, however, belive that suicide is the only unforgiveable sin.But of course there is an exception, unless you are on you last breaths and you ask for forgiveness from the whole of your heart you are demmed to the firey hole.

Abby: I understand your disgust with the hypocrasy called "Bible"...

But don't you think it's far more insulting to those who actually believe in that book, like some of our esteemed guests in here...

Abby: I completely understand what you mean...I throughly hate when someone says...If you don't believe in Jesus as your lord and Savior, you are going to damnation...Come from the lips of many unintelligent hicks...

But let's face it, there are going to be people with different representations and interpretations of the same truth, and there are going to be "active" ones, that actually go to a person of another faith, and try to convert him.

Religion is a powerful tool to the individual, but let's face it...It shouldn't be used in the hands of those that cannot understand it.

Lol...

Well I can sound like a lot of things Abby ;)

I dislike the word "Tolerate" but then there are people out there who take that word to heart...The world is full of disheartening and disliking qualities, but like a coin...It has two sides

AT,
The bible has been translated and retranslated into pretty much every world written language.

Hell, it wasn't even originally written in English, so I don't know where that comment was coming from.