Religion =crawling..lets all jog shall we?

Two parents
Four grand parents
Eight great grand parents
Sixteen great great grand parents
Thirty two great great great grand parents
Notice the number doubles every generation.
Now let's say on average a generation is 20 years
Let's take a finite number of years say 6000
Let's say 6000years =300 generations
1st=1
2nd=2
3rd=4
4th=8
5th=16
6th=32
7th=64
8th=128
9th=256
10th=512
11th=1024
12th=2048
13th=4096
14th=8192
15th=16384
16th=32768
17th=65536
18th=131072
19th=262144
20th=524288

As quickly as you can find the variable that would decrease the number of ancestors in a regressed genealogy chart

Yes the population has increased. but even if you look at it percentage wise instead of merely numericaly, the number of athiests have increased 10 fold in most developed countries

I do not believe that atheism is any more unified than theism

If we examine the countries that have developed military power wouldn"t we find that the power is in unity?

I can remember when The United Kingdom, and the United States were united under the same cause while they respected the United Nations. The power of the Soviet Union, is thought by many not to be what it was

If the simplest definition of atheism is the doctrine or belief that there is no God, then it is a belief system
A disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings usually is inspired by complete faith in the concrete or tangible, yet I prefer not to think of disbelievers as mindless, heartless, and soulless wouldn't you?

"An ideology is a set of aims and ideas that directs one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a 'received consciousness' or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society, and adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process. Ideologies are systems of abstract thought (as opposed to mere ideation) applied to public matters and thus make this concept central to politics. Implicitly every political tendency entails an ideology whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought." Wikipedea

What cause would unite atheist?

"A disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings usually is inspired by complete faith in the concrete or tangible, yet I prefer not to think of disbelievers as mindless, heartless, and soulless wouldn't you?"
i dont agree with that. i feel there is a big divide between spiritualism and theism , they dont both mean the same thing. alot of the most spiritual people i have ever met call themselves athiests. atheism is merely the denial of any one god or set of gods that watch over and judge us, that have any tangible influence over our lives. it does not implicitly mean the denial of the soul or a spiritual truth. look at buddhism or taoism. these two religeons are athiestic at heart yet still spiritual. they have become dogmatic and institutionalised like most theism religeons though. that is why i feel athiesm is so attractive to the spiritual. it has no dogma nor preconcieved ideas. the only unifying principal in it is a disbilief in any anthromorphised concept of god.

there is a short story i heard once that i feel is appropriate.
"one day the devil and one of his friends where walking down the street. when ahead of them a man stoped to pick up something from the dirt, he then looked at it and put it in his pocket. the friend said to the devil" what did that man just find" and the devil replied " a piece of truth" the friend then said " that must be bad news for you then" and the devil replied " not at all. i am going to help him orginize it into a religeon"

Http://www.zcoc.org/chstzen.htm

Thomas Merton (1915-1968) the Trappist monk and priest was internationally recognized as having one of those rare Western minds that was entirely at home in Asian experience. Like his friend, the late D.T. Suzuki, Merton believed that there must be a little of Zen in all authentic creative and spiritual experience.

Many forms of Christianity and Buddhism promote the ideology of individualism while recognizing a great need for unity in the world

If I perceived the ecosystem and myself as a creation and God as the creator could you understand why I might
"Just do the next thing" and "Let God be God in me."?
"To study the Buddha Dharma is
to study the self.
To study the self is
to forget the self.
To forget the self is
to be confirmed by the ten thousand things."

--Dogen Zenji
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

What is Meditation?

Meditation is a dynamic practice that expands our awareness by touching the present moment, where we can see reality as it is. Meditation is the tool to release ourselves from the controls of our habitual thought patterns that cause endless sufferings, and to develop understanding and compassion.

Many people practice Zen religiously

I disagree with with striving for unity through any dogma. it is kinda like trying to take a bath in mud. an oxymoron in principal. as all striving for unity does is create gaping chasms between people. look at christianity and its 30 odd thousand different sects. and how many times have wars been waged because of the "unifying" dogma that seperate people belive. if people strived for individualism alone they would then realise they are not really that much different from each other. be they christian, muslim or buddhist. any attempt for unity through beliefs is only a sick joke

To an extent I agree, but the human nature is closely related to animal nature. I had two little dogs that for the most part seemed to love eachother except when it came to sharing

Spiritualism unites while dogmatic religion separates. The religious autorities wanted Christ killed because he was perceived as a threat to their system of belief
"There is a Law that man should love his neighbor as himself. In a few hundred years it should be as natural to mankind as breathing or the upright gait; but if he does not learn it he must perish."
-- Alfred Adler

"United we stand, divided we fall."
-- Aesop (620 -560 B.C.)

* "We may have different religions, different languages, different colored skin, but we all belong to one human race."
-- Kofi Annan

"religion is dying out, which makes me very happy"

~smiles~ Well it makes you uninformed but thats OK, you can sleep better..."

Not quite Mr man, in the UK things are moving along very nicely for athiests.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/UK/religion.html

belong to a religion and attend regular services
1964 1970 1983 1992 2005
74% 71% 55% 37% 31%
Does not belong
3% 5% 26% 31% 38%

Here is a report on America.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm

a few choice quotes;

• So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian, "the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion," the report concludes.

still think religion is growing in developted countries?

: )

Http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/exoendo.htm

LoL, mikey, nice one.

A+

I hate to burst anyones bubble but looking up data on google is not proof of anything. I want to share an amusing story now that I am not wasting anyones time with so-called googled facts. Last week I visited a ninety four year old lady who told me that her new room mate was as sweet as she could be, but had an annoying habit of snoring and expelling gas all night long. Visiting the elderly is usually enjoyable, intillectually stimulating, and as spiritually fulfilling as online coversations ...no joke

Thank God for autumn breezes and kind people who leave air freshener with the elderly.

"all religions state that you should be 'kind to your fellow man' forget all the questions about how they all came about"

can i ask just what religeons you are talking about. you certainly cant mean any mainstream western religeon. maybe your only talking about buddhism and taoism though

it certainly cant be christianity you are talking about. the old testament is full of the killing of unbelievers. the slaughter of men woman and children etc etc there is just to much cruelty in there for me to bother writing about it all.
even after god got together with his public relations firm and the new testament was written ,not all the cruelty to the fellow man was taken out of it. the new testament promotes slavery( not a very nice thing) says how all homosexuals should be killed( not very nice or tolerant either) and says over and over and over again how any one who dosnt believe in jesus words and follow him is evil and will burn for all eternity( not very nice or tolerant either) yes you could point to specific passages that say everyone should love each other. but it is just as easy to point to passages that say the opposite. the whole bible is a complete mess of just such contridictions. kinda makes a person realise that if it really is the word of god then god must have a serious multiple personality disorder.

you cant mean the jewish religeon as that is based on the old testament. and like i said alot of the old testament says you should kill unbelievers.

you cant mean the muslim religeon. that specificaly states jews and christians are evil. it also says to kill all disbelievers wherever they are found and states it is there just punishment.

when it comes down to it nearly all religeons promote cruelty and violence to unbelievers. not tolerance or love

and before you ask. no i dont know the bible word for word. who the hell does? but i have read all of it 3 times, which is alot more than most christians. i have read the koran. the jewish holy books . the satanic bible, the book of the law. the tao teh king the Bhagavad Gita the uphshandi and many other religous books from all types of religeons. so i might just have the slightest idea of what i am saying. and the only religeons that showed any sort of real tolerance and love to everyone is those that dont believe in any anthromorphisized idea of god. like taoism and buddhism

"All religions state that you should be 'kind to your fellow man' forget all the questions about how they all came about..ask yourself tonight (no not jus you Michael) everyone...have you done all you could for the person next to you..no matter their religion?"

Yes the golden rule is reflected in many spiritual paths

My doctor confrmed I have an arrhymia of the heart and could oder a million dollars of test to find what is causing it

I still believe I have more time than money and would love to spend it doing unto others

"Pathetic, how the lack of insight and a doubtful knowledge devoid of logic, could be a curse, in a world where only "faith" is the drive, to accomplish or give one's life, a real meaning."

can i ask just where is your total insight and knowledge completely backed up by logic in this post of yours. you have done nothing but attack peoples beliefs without even giving one iota of reasoning to back up your opinion. why dont you argue with what i said and tell me where and why i am wrong. instead of attacking my inteligence , morality and insight. it is the most annoying thing i found with believers of any dogmatic religeon. as soon as they have no logic to back up there claims they instead attack the persons personality. even if i am the most evil, pathetic and stupid person in the entire world, it still dosnt mean your beliefs make any more sense than before

and yes i have been arguing with peoples beliefs on here. but i have always giving detailed reasons why i think they are wrong. so why dont you attack my logic or reasoning instead of using 200 words to say i am an unmoralistic idiot because you have faith it is so.

ps and go on with your blind belief and faith. you may someday open your eyes and discover the only person who can save you is yourself

Firstly sorry if i was a bit defensive. its just that i spent alot of my life in south africa, which is largely christian. and when i broke away from christianity and stood up for what i believed i was verbally attacked by nearly everyone. family members, teachers, priests, kids i went to school with etc called a satanist, devil worshiper etc and told over and over again i was going to hell. so the slightest trace of it now tends to get my hackels raised.

now about humanism.it is very similair to taoism, and there is alot within it that i agree with . but then to be honest i have found alot i agree with in christianity and every other religeon i have researched, i have no problem with belief or god. i just dont like organized and dogmatic religeons. i have seen how they have devided people more than they have ever brought them together. caused thousands of wars and cruelty and suffering. all in the name of god. i feel that if people forget there religeons and instead looked within to try find god(or truth or the soul or whatever you want to call it) they would begin to realise just how similair we all are. as every religeon just uses different words to try and describe the same thing , but then a person could use a million words to describe how salt tastes, yet you will never know the truth untill you taste it yourself. i think that is another reason i dont like thiestic religeons. most people in them take the words as the gospel truth, but words are only an empty symbalism. they are not the truth. the truth has to be discovered for yourself. and i have found any preconcieved idea of what the truth is only gets in the wayof that discovery

Can I get a show of virtual hands from the believers in here.

Who was raised in their faith?

Who got into it during a bad time or very challenging time in their lives?

And who, as an adult (say over 16) read up on it and decided it was the right thing for them?

Be interesting to see where people are really coming from.

I was also baptized Catholic though I have turn from my faith many times in search of an easier way, yet I have not found one.

If we ignore all of the abstract characteristics of a spiritual environment would we not have cause and effect? Many Behavioral Scientist have observed godlike qualities in human beings, manifested as roles of persecutors, saviors and victims. When a physician prescribes a remedy he must run the risk of being perceived as the cause of the affliction. In the wild weaker animals are consumed by the stronger animals that have a natural affliction, known as hunger. Humans have a hunger that is neither moral nor immoral.
I believe the conscience can be influenced, by religion, in much the same way, that recreational, drug users are influenced, by chemicals. Not all chemicals are bad, and can be used for healing. It just seems more practical to seek a balanced diet of spirituality than to starve everyone to self-abuse.

http://www.goddirect.org/mindemtn/writings/january/psytrang.htm

"you cant mean the muslim religeon. that specificaly states jews and christians are evil. it also says to kill all disbelievers wherever they are found and states it is there just punishment."
.... well Rocky, I'm muslim, I've read the Quran and understood it, along with many other islamic books... it doesn't say that jews and christians are evil. It says that we all come from one bloodline and that we are all equal in the eyes of god. The people who claim to be muslims and kill and create havok are ridiculous, they are not true muslims... unless they start war, we are not supposed to act unkindly against them, or kill them, or create war against them and even if they start a war (anybody not just jews and christians) we are required to try and resolve the problem in a peaceful matter. Bin Laden and others who claim to be muslims are NOT muslims and they are a disgrace to the muslim community. Like if I saw non believers like Rocky and Kevin here somewhere in real life I wouldn't kill them, or act violently or in resentment toward them... instead I'd be understanding and we might even be friends.

I have a koran here where i have marked pages of interest. so i will gve youspecific verses and you can tell me if i am wrong. maybe i have misunderstood them or the translation isnt perfect

woman 4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level . So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

4:160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,
4:161 And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom. (these two passages sound like anti sematism to me. daming them for simply being jews)

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
( this passage is saying christians are evil in paticular)

6:33 We know well how their talk grieveth thee, though in truth they deny not thee (Muhammad) but evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah.
(this says anyone who dosnt believe in allah is evil)

now i know i have only shown a few passages. that alot of other passages do say to offer only peace to those who show peace. but you still cant deny it teaches you that all unbelievers are evil. that they lie and have no morals.

now i admit islam is alot better of a religeon than christianity or judaism. but it is still a thiesm based religeon like the other 2 and so has to teach that all other beliefs are evil and unmoralistic. that i dont agree with.

and i understand how the muslim religeon has unfairly got a bad rap lately because of suicide bombers. but christianity and judaism are no better. ever religeon has its fanatics who concentrate on a few passages out of there respective holy books and ignore others completely. look at ireland not so long ago with christians. but that is the problem with thiesm based religeons. they always create a small percentage of fanatics who let belief overide common sense

I understand what you're saying, but even the verses you placed there are not as literal as you think they are. They do not say that "other beliefs are wrong and unmoralistic". The quran is very deep, it has many meanings and it has a history and reason for every aya that the prophet recieved (because he recieved the quran not as one whole book, but peice by peice) and so if you look for the true interpretation you'll find a big difference to what you see and whats really there. Besides the english translation isn't the exact same as the original arabic wording. (like the word "noor" in the quran is usually translated as "light", when it actually means a warm strong light that is a pure white color, which is more specific than just light).

Like the last aya you mentioned, it doesn't mean that "anyone who doesn't believe in allah is evil". Actually if you go to the arabic version the word "evil" isn't mentioned in this aya. and it's real meaning is that "their talk", which is the harmful things people said about or to the prophet has saddened the prophet and so allah reasures him telling the prophet not to care of "their talk" because in truth they aren't making him seem like a liar, but the "dhalemeen" (arabic word meaning people who do wrong towards others without having a reason - translated to evil doers above) are ignoring gods signs, miracles or something similer to that.
As you see, the explanation I gave above is 180 degrees different than the translation and what it gives you. Even so it isn't 100% accurate, because the words are really hard to express in english. The quran is so complex that every letter (in the arabic version some ayas start with a letter) has a meaning.

It was alright to lose your head over religion in the days of John the Baptist and Saint Paul, but I would hope we could get past that

Hey Genuine lavender, thanks for taking the time for my little questionnaire. Mind if I feedback my thoughts on your answers.

You say you were raised in a religion, inside a very faithful community. Now, to me that suggests you were taught about the ideas and rules/creation myths as a child. We all know children lack the world experience and understanding to sort out fact from fiction like most adults can. This is why alot of kids believe so readily in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy, and to my mind Jesus.

I think the very fact you were raised in such an environment has made it very easy for you to accept the kinds of ideas that in any other topic, you'd most likely find rather hard to swallow.

For example, if I told you that the human race was created by an alien warlord who blasted millions of super advanced human souls into volcanoes to trap them, but some of the spirits go out and that is how the human race began...you'd most like laugh at me and ask for proof right?

(This is a rough basis for the scientology faith by the way)

But if I told you the christian creaton story, which to many people sounds just as fantastical, you'd be ok with that because as a small child you had it told to you over and over and you accepted it as fact.

Now you're an adult with this story wedged deep inside your head and it makes sense because it's part of who you are, and not perhaps because it's fact.

If I understand you Lavender, it sounds like you're saying that the reality behind the Christian religion, the very heart of it's structure, which is without a doubt the bible and it's creation story etc isn't important given how many people are content to exist under it's certainty.

Is that about right?

In other words, it doesn't matter to most Christians whether or not God created the earth in 6 days and Noah's ark ever sailed and even if Jesus did all those miraculous things on top of which a whole religion is based, because the religion is here and now, and people believe in it and use it to give them comfort.

Is that more accurate?

I'd just like to add that a lot of people accept religion for the first time later in life when they're capable of interpreting and choosing for themselves. Before anyone uses this as a reason, it also doesn't take a "life-changing" event for these people to begin to believe in a God.

What would you say about people who fall under this category?

Dark secret. thanx for the information. like i said i found alot less to object to in islam than christianity and judaism. and i guess mostof my problems with it could come down to translation errors.though i stil have some problems with an idea of an anthromorphsized god and the story of creation etc but i will leave those alone for now

genuine lavender
i understand that you were just saying your opinion. but an opinion without any reasoning behind it is useless in a discusion. i might hold the opinion that man was created by dolphins. but if i dont give a single real reason why, then my opinion is useless and no one will even give it the time of day except to call me an idiot.

"we absorb and deal with those as FACTS, doubtlessly and not as fantasies children wake up to forget."
accepting something as a fact because of faith dosnt mean it is a fact. the egyptians and sumarians and greeks etc believed and had as much faith as you do that there own creation myths were true. yet now we look back at them and laugh at there gullibility. so why do you think it will be any different with your beliefs. in 3000 years time when christianity and judaism and islam are nothing more than a chapter in our history books, do you not think people will then look back at your beliefs in the same way we look at the ancient egyptian ones.

forester
you are wrong by saying alot of people turn to religeon at a later point in there life with no life changing event. as i dont know of any people who have done this. yes i know of people who abandoned there religeon only to return many years later. i know of people who took up religeon because there wife or girlfriend etc was religous. but i promise you that the number of people who where brought up athiest who then turned to a dogmatic and thiesm based religeon after the age of 18 outof no external force at all is extremely few. i am sure there are some but in a world of 7 billion people some people will do anything. its a basic probability chance. not the rule

Firstly, Kudos to the poster above me (I can't see their name as for some reason a tiny portion at the bottom of this thread is blanked out for me!

Lavender. I'd remind you that you entered this thread of your own free will, and it's a discussion thread. If you don't like people interpreting your posts and trying to understand them, and you I'd suggest just not posting anymore.

I didn't "put words in your mouth", I asked if my summary of your post was accurate, massive difference. Clearly it wasn't to your liking.

I think we've reached what I like to call "the impasse of faith". It's that wall of emotions and childhood and faith that cannot be talked about in a reasonable way. Already Lavender you are getting very defensive with me, even though I've been nothing but patient and polite, and I might add very honest. But I have no wish to upset you and to be directyou have shown me exactly what I already suspected.

You believe because you were raised in it, and it's become a massive emotional part of who you are. It doesn't matter that your faith can't stand up to a poetry website debate, or that the history and holy books of your faith are so in question, morally and factually you have no choice but to simply not even try to defend them. It's now your only recourse is to suggest it's my fault for not having the intelligence or insight or...faith to get it.

I'm trying too, really I am. Unfortunately nothing that has been said even suggests I'm on the wrong path. I'm sure you feel the same dear, just don't get all wound up at me.

"A religion is any systematic approach to living that involves beliefs about one's origins, one's place in the world, or a responsibility to live and act in the world in particular ways."
I know it sometimes looks like we are moving when we are standing still, but there are two sides to every story. "Galileo Galilei was an Italian physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who played a major role in the Scientific Revolution."
In truth the sun has been the center of or solar system before it was politically correct to discover a truth. As a Christian I am required to place the Son at the center of my universe. As Christians prepare to celebrate their holy days we would do well to dream of peace on earth and good will toward men as a worthy destination in a universal holiday spirit. Christians view Faith, Hope, and Love as theological virtues. C. S Lewis who was raised Christian decided at the age of ten to call himself an atheist, latter examined his conscience and became one of the most influential spiritual writers of our century.
Theological conscience may be a man made phrase, yet is it not logical to assume that Good Orderly Direction is not contrary to the nature of science?

*all quotes from wikipedia*

*bangs his head against a brick wall*

I'll say only this in closing Lavender. If your faith serves you and makes you a good moral person, then that is fine. Personally I don't need a celestial dictatorship that exists before life, during it and afterwards, a diety Big brother to make me behave decently or instill a humanity and care for my fellow human beings. I have those qualities all on my own, no need for a religion or God for me to be a good person.

Who is more moral? The person who acts decently simply because they wish to be decent for it's own merits, or the person who acts decently because they believe some God is keeping scores on their sins, and not only actions but thoughts as well and they wish to avoid punishment.

Yes indeed, Christians can be sinners for evil thoughts, thoughtcrime is a staple of a fascist regime. It's so Big brother "1984".

But we have hit the wall of faith, and I know of now way via a website I can get you too peek over that wall.

^ what you said there is pretty interesting, but we don't have a religion to control and contain us... religion is too broad a topic to discuss because its meaning isn't discovered yet, no matter how many people have defined it. My definition is that religion is a constitution of life, it works on many people in many situtions and of different races. But if it is a constitution, it would become as you said it is, so why should we have a religion, especially if we have constitutions? Religion is there to explain the mysteries of life, love and death, which - in my opinion - are the three elements which create a human being. Even with all the development and discoveries we have, no one has yet explained them so acuratly as religion has (in my opinion). Religion is faith, but not entirly faith, it needs some reason in it (meaning mentally more than scientifically) and if I wasn't convinced of my religion I wouldn't be in it. Even now I don't believe or do everything I hear, because not all that is said is true, yet I do believe in every single word in the quran because it (the quran) has proven itself to be true for me from my years of experience and it has helped me in my life.

Dark Secrets, do you really think religion has offered up the best explanations for life, love and death?

I think Shakespeare offered more insightful writings on love. I think Science has done far more to explain the reasons and causes and workings of death, and I think modern sociology, psychology and philosophy has exceeded religious texts by a huge amount.

Ya, I do... well at least in my religion. In islam there are many explanations of life, love and death. I've heard things that go beyond sciences and literature. There are things mentioned in the quran that are just being dicovered in our modern days. There are stories in our religion to show you how families are supposed to be, a rolemodel for love, and many explanations of love itself and where it comes from. How to devotly love someone (including god) from all your heart. The works of literature no matter how wonderful and glorious they are don't show you the true meaning of love... because in them love is always linked with lust and that fades away easily. You haven't heard the things islam says about death, the information exceeds all the other explanations I've heard of. Still, not everything you hear is true, but when you omit the unreasonable you get the closest meaning you'll get out of all three.

Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out the workings of death from a natural point of view?

To focus on the mythical creations of the common era is to miss what we all have in common

* All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family

"All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family, and each one of us is responsible for the misdeeds of all the others. I cannot detach myself from the wickedest soul."

"It is easy enough to be friendly to one's friends. But to befriend the one who regards himself as your enemy is the quintessence of true religion. The other is mere business."
-- Mohandas K. Gandhi

"I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart."
-- Anne Frank

I firmly believe religion (and I include all the old school ones here, so Christianity, Islam etc) were a needed, but very basic and simple attempt by humanity to make sense of the world when we didn't know how anything worked."

Really kevin... I would think that you wouldn't fall prey to such ignorant explanations...

You cannot remove religion... If you did atheism and those that worship science as their new god would also cease... Religion will forever stay so long as humanity exist... Although it will always get a new branch every century...

But its funny you think religion is some form of crutch... The irony in it is quite amusing