Religion-not a debate about it's truth

I'm trying to think of things that religion offers people that they just can't get from anywhere else.

Love
purpose and focus in life
spiritual faith and experience
community
ethics and morals
explanations about the world and humanity

All the above things I believe can be attained without religion, and to be honest in much more insightful and benificial ways in many cases, certainly ethics/morals and explanations about the world and our humanity.

Is it really only about being afraid of death? That is one of the few things religion does seem to offer a strangely descriptive explanation for that you don't find in many other places. Is it really only that? Death and the desire for a power much higher than yourself to keep judgement over you.

"In religion and spirituality, a pilgrimage is a long journey or search of great moral significance. Sometimes, it is a journey to a shrine of importance to a person's beliefs and faith. Members of many major religions participate in pilgrimages. A person who makes such a journey is called a pilgrim."

In the course of my life I have not only met a lot of people in need of spiritual forgiveness I feel I am one with them.

To borrow a phrase "when I find myself in times of trouble" from the song lyrics "Let It Be" http://www.allspirit.co.uk/let.htm
I have taken detours. Many churches have taken detours in the quest for Unity in Diversity.
It seems kind of ironical that I recall tears coming from my mother's eyes when "Let It Be" was sung as a hymn in our traditional catholic church. I believe that forgiveness and tolerance are two of the most important things that religion in its purest form has to offer.

One could make the case that when animals migrate they are seeking a more favorable natural environment. Many people do long for a more favorable "spiritual environment" in this world. As in the movie Forrest Gump even when you run for the sake of running you may find people that will follow.

That is a very honest answer Britt, one that most people who believe because they were taught too don't have the courage or insight to realize, so kudos to you.

Michael, I suppose I'd say to you that you can have spiritual ritual, meetings with others and views on life without the adherance to a God figure or a set of divinely inspired rules, I know I do.

Yes I believe that it is good to have ritual meetings with others whether you are there to figure God out or figure God as essential in life.

A religion is any systematic approach to living that involves beliefs about one's origins, one's place in the world, or a responsibility to live and act in the world in particular ways.
I know it sometimes looks like we are moving when we are standing still, but there are two sides to every story. Galileo Galilei was an Italian physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who played a major role in the Scientific Revolution.
In truth the sun has been the center of or solar system before it was politically correct to discover a truth. As a Christian I am required to place the Son at the center of my universe. As Christians prepare to celebrate their holy days we would do well to dream of peace on earth and good will toward men as a worthy destination in a universal holiday spirit. Christians view Faith, Hope, and Love as theological virtues. C. S Lewis who was raised Christian decided at the age of ten to call himself an atheist, latter examined his conscience and became one of the most influential spiritual writers of our century.
Theological conscience may be a man made phrase, yet is it not logical to assume that Good Orderly Direction is not contrary to the nature of science?

Pick your own path, believe how you chose and believe in what you chose

I have heard "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Religion is often concerned with the conscience though theological thinkers are not opposed to logic. If we perceive heaven and hell as eternal it is outside of the realm of science, which by its nature is observable. Objectively our lives on earth are temporal and we may only imagine heaven and hell while we journey toward the light of truth

I disagree Micheal.

Science is every day uncovering and narrowing down the myths and misconceptions regarding many things religious and spiritual people have claimed to be divine or paranomal in origins.

It's a fact people used to believe the failing of crops was Gods punishment, lol some people still think like this.

There is no such thing as heaven and hell, and if there is Science will find it one day as it moves towards controlling and explaining everything religion used to hold claim over.

Good times.

It seems that finding eternity is a never ending quest. For the most part the five senses are also temperal. Mercury is affected by temperature when it is an element, or a planet. To dwell on its origins would be to miss its true properties in much the same way religion has missed the true properties of Good Orderly Direction

"Existentialism is a term applied to the work of a number of 19th- and 20th-century philosophers who, despite profound doctrinal differences, generally held that the focus of philosophical thought should be to deal with the conditions of existence of the individual person and his or her emotions, actions, responsibilities, and thoughts"

Existentialism does not seem to work for everybody
"On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche finally suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What actually happened remains unknown, but the often-repeated tale states that Nietzsche witnessed the whipping of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect the horse, and then collapsed to the ground"

*looks around for the non segway to explain Micheals post and how it relates in any way to anything I said*

Yeah nice wiki facts there Micheal, doesn't really address anything I was saying, but you keep at it, I understand.

It's a fact people used to believe the failing of crops was Gods punishment, lol some people still think like this.

It is also a fact that the old farmers almanac is based on astrology and many people still plant by them in spite of some religions condemnation of astrology

If crops were to fail because of climate change due to global warming many conservatives would not even blame man for that.

Man cannot control higher power but some see scientific facts to be inconvenient also

All the above things I believe can be attained without religion...

You can't be serious? You just before made a topic stating that while religion has contributed vastly throught human existance, it is still outdated...Yet now you completely done a 180?

Lets not kid ourselves here. Humanity cannot survive without religion. Even the absence of religion is still religion...*Cough* Athesim *Cough*

But really Kevin, you're so close-minded...You rely too much on science, which clearly is still in its fledgling stage... Its quite ironic the situation when you think about it...

Not everything is black or white....Lol

"Universal morality
One of the main theses in Lewis's apologia is that there is a common morality known throughout humanity. In the first five chapters of Mere Christianity Lewis discusses the idea that people have a standard of behavior to which they expect other people to adhere. This standard has been called Universal Morality or Natural Law. Lewis claims that people all over the earth know what this law is and when they break it. He goes on to claim that there must be someone or something behind such a universal set of principles.' Wikipedia
The reality of self-harm should be seen as an evil even before it is taken to the extreme of self -termination, though it would be easy to imagine an escape of any external judgment

I sometimes like to play the devils advocate imagining a world with no need for leadership as if the conscience could evolve with no need to look back on any mistakes

Love
purpose and focus in life
spiritual faith and experience
community
ethics and morals
explanations about the world and humanity

It is true that these things can be attained without religion.. but they are not the only reason we have religion. Also, it is different to recieve these things from man than from a god. Just think about the first one there, love comming from people can never be unconditional and at most times it fades away. You may think it is silly to think this because the same way you'd say that christians always say "Jesus loves you" and then he doesn't love sinners... so contradicting. But there is always way for forgiveness and you have a big chance to repent and that's why religion is always where people go when they have lost all hope.

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5;32

I do not believe that Jesus loved any physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual affliction, but like any other prophet he needed the acceptance of his followers to bring change
It is sad that many Christians believe they are only called to love the so called repentant and righteous.

"No big deal though, states & central bodies will still find ways of controlling the masses through other means."

An afflicted person such as myself cannot resist a statement such as this as a segway to share a story that may have nothing to do with religion

A soldier that was stationed in Iraq said she saw a man walking by a woman, who was carrying a large bundle on her head, that looked like a tumbleweed. The man was carrying a stick. When the woman dropped the bundle the man began to beat the woman without mercy. The soldier was so disturbed by this unethical behavior that she yelled profanity at the man while cocking her weapon. The man stopped punishing the woman immediately

We can't imagine Jesus, Buddha or Mohammad using deadly force to enforce a moral code but it would be hard to argue its effectiveness

I guess what I am trying to say is sticks and stones could cause injury, but an M-16 is more dangerous

Dark secrets i think youare really onto something there. that a very large comfort of religeon is that something truly loves and cares about you no matter what and will forgive your every sin if you trully ask. come to think about it i think they may even be a greater motivation to most people than the promise of heaven or fear of hell

I am serious Noir.

Point in case, I don't adhere to a religion and I have all those things I listed! LoL.

I am closed minded to religious nonsense, which you seem to be rather taken with.

Humanity could totally survive without religion, don't be dense lad. If you really think that then you are showing the limitations of your personality, ethics and understanding.

"I couldn't survive without a parent figure watching me from the sky, lightening bolt in hand"

LoL. Fairies, Santa Clause and God.

Get a grip.

People always seem to get things back to front, for in reality it is man who created god

How many other creatures with a central nervous system can survive without systems?

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artmar02/head.html

Gaze into the mind of a water flea and convince me it is not just a fragment of a larger system

You know Michael, I was going to debate you, but then I realized it's a little pointless.

It would be the same as a "flat earth" proponent debating a geographer, or an evolutionary biologist debating with a creationist.

An astrologer Vs an astronomer.

It looks good on your CV, not so good on mine to be trying to explain to you, high school biology and evolution.

A serious person, an adult with real world views will find it endlessly frustrating and rather impossible to reason with another adult who believes in fantastical otherwordly things like GOd, or Santa.

There can be no serious debate between us Michael, not if you're going to make posts like the one above.

"A serious person, an adult with real world views will find it endlessly frustrating and rather impossible to reason with another adult who believes in fantastical otherwordly things like GOd, or Santa"

It is a dangerous delusion to pretend for your sake, that adults who believe in God are already a minor group

Would you like to show me a list of the surviving civilizations that never built altars to their perceived divinity?

In a civilized debate one would address the answer to a question rather than to kill the spirit of the messenger

"Saint Nicholas (Greek: Agios ["saint"] Nikolaos ["victory of the people"]) (270 - 6 December 346) is the canonical and most popular name for Nicholas of Myra, a saint and Greek[3] Bishop of Myra (Demre, in Lycia, part of modern-day Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nicholas the Wonderworker. He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus,"
wikipedia

Saint Nicholas was believed to have the spirit of God within him

I believe anyone willing to accept the spirit of God will receive it as a gift from God.

Kevin I believe you have the desire to seek the light much the same as creatures with much more tiny brains and hearts.

"It would be the same as a "flat earth" proponent debating a geographer, or an evolutionary biologist debating with a creationist."

I have no delusions that anything posted in this thread will affect religion, science, or truth

I want it to be understood that I am not a conservative flat earther

But do you believe in the story of Noah's Ark?

I don't recall any black people being on that Boat...

The only thing I believe is that truth is constant and perception is not.

If I had to be perceived as one or the other I would rather be anti-religious than anti-Christ. It has become clear to me that the focus of scripture has not been on compassion no more than science has focused on morals

Let's just say divine inspiration is often filled with morals and metaphors

Humanity could totally survive without religion, don't be dense lad. If you really think that then you are showing the limitations of your personality, ethics and understanding."

Lol... I can say the same about you... Politics, Law, ethics and society as a whole originated from the womb of religion. It'll never remove itself... So long as we're fearful selfish mortals...

Remove those three... And you may remove religion...Lol

By the way Kevin... Mocking something you have no possibility of disproving is rather sad... Don'tcha think?

FYI... Don't mix in myth and children fairytales into the religion stewpot... I don't want you to quote mother goose on me...

See Noir, there you go again totally placing limits upon humanity that only religious faith can break free from, and it's cute but no longer relevant.

Ethics does not come from religion, and how do I know this? Because if we as a species had no ethics we'd never have made it to the foot of Mount Sinai in one piece, for it's religiously true that there was no holy law for the jews before the commandments.

You trying to tell me they made it all the way through the desert, hungry, hot and without certainty of success, and they did all this, made this incredible journey without ethics and morals?

You are foolish if you believe it.

Another reason I know we don't get our ethics from the bible, or any holy book is because we pick and choose which rules, and which ethics we want to follow. I don't know any Christians who follow the exact word of God, so when you clear away the fog of nonsense one thing is clear.

It's our natural and learned sense of right and wrong, seperate from relilgion which allows us to pick and choose which religious codes to follow.

If we got all our ethics from religion, this would not be the case now would it.

I rest my case.

Free to a good home. one slightly used ancient deity.according to the manual he has a serious multiple personality problem and is bipolar 2. this is likely due to him being 3 deitys in 1- or maybe it is 1 deity in 3 ,the manual is a bit unclear about this. it claims this is because he is totaly incomprihensible, so i dont see what use he can be.but dont worry he is Quiet, invisible, and leaves no traces of his existence what so ever- you won't ever know he's there! salvation not gaurenteed. taken as is .
warning may attract followers

I think it is very sad when the religious spiritual experience does not reflect the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love

http://www.quotesby.net/Laura-Nyro

I enjoyed reading A Million Little Pieces though I do not believe the author fully understood the value of a change in attitude

To be honest if I were in any large city and was down and out, I would feel safer in any church parking lot than any government project

Rocky that is some funny stuff.

I love it when people take a commonly known subject and turn it on it's head, showing the absolute absurdity of it from another angle.

You may get a kick out of this though even Zeno had to move on with the times

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradox-zeno/

Another interesting point which you don't hear about very often is this.

The central story of the Bible, the thing that holds it all together and makes so many people believe in it, is the story of Jesus and his miraculous life and works. In short, his miracles.

Now what is curious is that the same kinds of feats Jesus apparently accomplished are happening all over the world right now, pretty much every day and they don't warrent even a mention on any major news channel because we all know and understand they are ridiculous.

Yet, those same kinds of tricks and scams when placed into a 2000 year old myth which is later written down in a paraphrased kinda way a few hundred years after the fact, well hundreds of thousands of people all over the world believe in those miracles.

Do some reading on a chap called Sia babba. He is alive and well in India right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba

I laugh when I read about this moron, cause clearly he is a fraud. If he could do any of the things he claims he can, he'd jump at the chance to be tested in a lab, because lol think of the converts he'd get if he had the backing of the scientific community!

That will never happen because those things are and never have been possible. We should be ashamed to call ourselves rational intelligent adults and accept they ever could be true.

I consider myself a creative evolutionist though I believe I have witnessed at least as many miracles as evolutions

Kevin have you ever read terry pratchetts books "small gods" and " good omen"?

Miracles are what people call things that are very very good for them that they can't explain or understand.

Someone gets diagnosed with Cancer and they pray to whatever God they know about, the cancer goes away and suddenly it's a miracle, even though alot of Cancers go away from people who aren't religious and never pray.

And like I said before, there are people alive today like Satya Sai baba who are reportly peforming miracles, witnessed by tens of thousands of LIVING eye witnesses and they don't even warrant 5 minutes any serious news program.

Yet, take the same kinds of miracle stories, and put them in a pre scientific roman empire of 100 AD, 100 years after the events written took place, and millions of people around the world think it a legitimate project to organise their lives around.

Does anyone else see a problem with that?

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you."
--Thomas Jefferson, to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

C.S. Lewis noted that one cannot believe a miracle occurred if one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are not possible at all.

It also just seems narrow minded to believe life came into existence through infinite possibilities while believing possibilities are finite

Talking in crop circles much Michael?

You believe Miracles have occured, but I garantee if any of them were properly investigated they'd be proven and explained by something most likey either very mundane or an act of trickery on someones part.

You are doing what you always do when I present really solid debate points, you don't even address them, you just snatch a quote from wiki and slap it down.

It's poor debating Mr, really poor.

But you know what, lets have a bash at it. What is the most amazing miracle you've ever personally experienced and we'll see if we can make sense of it.

On the morning of New Year's Day 2003, I received a very disturbing phone call from my niece. She said that my sister, Debbie, was in Centennial hospital. The doctors believed that my sister had a ruptured brain aneurysm. Her heart had stopped beating in the ER of a local hospital. She was thereby resuscitated, placed on a life support system and transported to Centennial. The doctors there said that Debbie was having seizures. If they could not stabilize her within 24 hours, there would be no use in keeping her on life support. I had followed the progress of at least a dozen attempts to save a victim of a ruptured brain aneurysm; and they had all failed. A few years before, I had lost my niece, after they had her on the life support following a ruptured brain aneurysm. The situation looked so hopeless, that all I could do was begin the normal grieving process. I wondered how her daughter had composed herself so well, while she did what I was going to have to do: inform the rest of the family. I could hardly believe the words that I had to speak.
I went to church with my sister Pat, who is one of my six sisters. I saw a member of the prayer group and told her about Debbie. She assured me she would put Debbie on the prayer line. But I was still preparing myself for the loss. Yet I knew God could bring her back. If it was God's will that she go on to her Eternal Birth, then I was going to miss her. We went to the hospital that night, thinking we could console the even closer family members. We got a little spark of hope when Debbie's husband updated us on what the doctors were saying. The doctors no longer believed that she had had an aneurysm. Yet our hope was quickly dampened by his next words The doctors are not offering much hope. In fact, four doctors agreed it would take a miracle for her to survive. As best I could understand, the seizures were prolonged. They were so severe, that even under maximum sedation, the doctors feared that her brain was badly damaged. I went into the ICU to see her. I could see no movement except what the respirator was providing. None of the nurses were noticing any significant response. We saw no response for the rest of that day. On the second day, her daughters tell the nurses they think she squeezed each of their hands as they held onto one of hers. The nurses tell them it is probably just a reflex action; as if to say, don't get your hopes up. On the third day, they are still noticing an increase in response; but the official statement from the caregivers is no change.

The fourth day, the doctors say they think she is trying to focus. They are offering us the first signs of hope. The doctors decide to back off the sedatives, even at the risk of seizures recurring; in order to see if she could breathe a little bit on her own. On the fifth day, she is trying to talk. Debbie manages to form the words: What happened?. She appears to be trying to tell us a story. She seems frustrated because she can't talk with the breathing tube in her mouth. On the sixth day, Debbie is off the respirator and talking! She is beginning to remember the events in the ER. She remembers people saying that her heart had stopped; and her shocked expletive response. She envisioned that she had left the hospital twice.
After hearing of this miraculous change from where Debbie was just a few days earlier, I had to witness this miracle myself. I drove to Nashville and walked into ICU. I stood in awe and wonder, as I watched my sister trying to solve the first problem at hand. Just days before this, doctors were running tests to see if there was any activity in her brain. They were not happy with the results at that time. Now, she was conscious but faced a new problem. She was trying to remove a drainage tube in her throat, which she found to be very uncomfortable. She apparently had thought out a plan to remove it, even though her arms were restrained. She was maneuvering the tube with her tongue and teeth. She quickly noticed me and laughed. She said:I'm trying to get this tube out. Then she laughed again, after thinking a moment, and said I guess I'm not supposed to. I was overwhelmed with joy! The smile that I thought I would miss forever, was returned to earth!! She asked me how I was doing. Then she said: You ain't gonna believe what I'm going to tell you!. Perhaps she had forgotten that I am a poet, full of imagination? Debbie said that she had left the hospital on MANY occasions. She began to recall the events of the Code Blue. She heard people saying something about an arrest. In her daze, she wondered why she was being arrested when she had done nothing wrong. Then someone mentioned something about a charge. Again, in her daze, she wondered how would she be charged? That she must get out of there, quick! I laughed so hard, I could barely stand; and Debbie laughed right along with me. Blessed are those who weep and mourn, for one day they shall indeed laugh. My, how we did!!

Ok so if it wasnt an aneurysm then what was it that was actually wrong with her,

and i dont know if you could call this a miracle. some people have survived all sorts of things that should have killed them. even if the chances of her surviving where extremely small, it dosnt mean it was impossible without some gods help

"Ok so if it wasnt an aneurysm then what was it that was actually wrong with her,"

As best I could understand, the seizures were prolonged. They were so severe, that even under maximum sedation, the doctors feared that her brain was badly damaged

I can understand Kevin not being happy with me quoting C.S. Lewis in response to his Thomas Jefferson quote

Don't you see how your reaction reflects exactly that one cannot believe a miracle occurred if one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are not possible at all?

A miracle is often considered a fortuitous event: compared with an Act of God.

We can say it is logical for creation to have no Creator, but not without changing the meaning of creation

Other miracles might be: survival of a terminal illness, escaping a life threatening situation or 'beating the odds

I must confess when the doctors said it would take a miracle for my sister to survive the crisis my first thought was she is going to die.

"There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle.The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Albert Einstein, physicist and Nobel laureate

So no one has any idea what was actually wrong with her. she just started having violent seizures then got beter. sounds like it was a miracle that she started having the siezures in the first place.

and as for "We can say it is logical for creation to have no Creator, but not without changing the meaning of creation" the problem with the creation theory is that it still leaves the question of who created the creator. and then who created the thing which created the creater. ad infinitum. but maybe you believe the creater has just always been there. but then logically why do you find it so much easier to believe some invisible man in the sky who is all powerfull and knowing etc has always been there even though you have never seen nor met him. but you find it impossible to believe the universe has always been there even though you can see, touch and experience it every day?