Weekly Contest Discussion cont'd

Carry on, I don't want to kill the discussion.

Last post (me):

""^wow, why didn't we think of that....it's not even an obvious solution because we all know everyone can't nominate poems....duh"

Then PM me or someone else who is a senior member and ask them to take a look at the poem. I would gladly nominate poems for you or anyone who is serious.
As far as becoming a senior member to nominate poems yourself, it's easy these days... leave a few detailed comments on active members' poetry and you'll be one in no time :)
Especially if you do not trust others, it's best for you to take matters into your own hands. Do the work, become a senior, nominate poems you like.

billy rob, full discloser here. I read all of the nominated poems and voted this week to cover for an absent judge. My votes are those showing without comments. As you can see, I gave the highest vote (10 pts) to a rhyming poem.
Now what were you saying? :)
LOL, I happen to love rhymed poetry. I'm not any good at it, but I appreciate when others are. Also, thank you for complimenting me as a poet, that was very kind, but I have to disagree and say I'm generally pretty crap at writing. Above average at best.

Thread is full, going to lock it and start another."

Discussion isn't a bad thing, as long as people refrain from hitting below the belt.

I am always asleep when you guys are debating, due to the time difference, so some of the things thrown my way are somewhere way back in the other thread.

The thing I stated is that it is in bad taste to state a winner was unworthy of a win, while they didn't even ask to win and then have the choice to either sit on their hands in disgust or defend themselves( which is too ridiculous for words, in a congratulatory thread!!!!)

About me being two faced or an ass kisser.....you just got yourself a whole bunch of new enemies Bob..because I ain't none of them things and the ones who really know me, who have known me for years as a devoted friend will take offense at your rudeness, which is completely uncalled for.

You act like you wrote the book on poetry, you didn't. As far as I know you have always been a regular member posting his work. Being a mod ( as you once were)does not mean being an expert on writing poetry.

I didn't want to do this, but I am going to now. You talk about friends nominating poems unworthy of wins, because they are biased. You talk about people unable to accept good, constructive criticism. Now ,what do you, yourself think about the poetic value of the winning poem on your account, which was voted for abundantly by your buddies? And can you explain why you chose to ignore the critique I gave on your latest "Haiku".

And if you think I am being two faced talking like this, then you don't realize I react to what you are doing. it's called being true to yourself and that makes me....a non- ass kisser. I don't dislike you as a person, but won't keep my mouth shut, not for anyone.

You are just as much a part of this community as we all are, but this 'rebel without a cause act' is getting old....and boring.

I wonder why you came back, I honestly do.

It is so clear how pm's have been read....yes, I have stated in the past that I hated you and you brought that about yourself. You are leaving out something here and that is that I have told you a while ago I have forgiven you. It is in the past now, but every time something happens on here, you seem to be forgetting that one message I sent you. I wonder why. I have this feeling you feel more comfortable with people hating you.

As to you knowing "my kind": you don't know me and unless we ever meet in person, which is higly unlikely, you never will.

The poem you posted is a Senryu, to my humble *cough* knowledge.

Alright, is this still about the weekly contest, or is it just "he said she said?" Sure, there have been a lot of posts, but let's not pretend it's because everyone's staying on topic of the congratulatory thread.

Even barring all the other reasons I think the poem in question is a poem, I have to think that's what it is, simply because it couldn't be anything else. If it were written out as prose, it would need to be greatly altered to keep it from reading awkwardly. The phrasing and styling of the lines is poetic. The way it flows and builds up to the final lines is fitting with it being a poem. It's condensed where prose would be drawn out. There is attention paid to how the words complement each other. Maybe stories can do this too, but they do it on a larger and more watered-down scale... or else they're poems.

This may shock many who label me as the religious poet who forces rhyme , but I feel that the best poetry I have ever read is the translations of the ancient scriptures that became the Torah, Koran and the books of the Bible. Though the story of Noah and the flood is in the most obscure cultural genesis of inspired writings known to us. A myth is something that is timeless and the true message of a myth remains the same though the perception changes as we get closer to the purpose of the message it was meant to deliver. If the warning of a flood was read like a grocery list and an ark is perceived as an abstract or foolish expression of art, all of us casual observers will drown in our own vanity. I don't believe the author of the said essay would believe I am trying to steal his thunder by reading between the list of cataclysms that are accepted as mundane goods. The tide of old seems to have no reason or rhyme but the rhythm of the heavens still reach the earth. To wash a brain you must agitate it. I dare not create originality of cleansings, natural or otherwise. To clear up my point music is a universal language and if all artist marched to the beat of the same drum if one misses the boat all miss the boat.

I know what a Senryu is.

I always tell the truth, whereas you twist words and intentions around, Bob. The reason why I hated your guts goes back years and has to do with this very characteristic of yours, and I bet you don't even remember.

All you do on here is seize the opportunity to lash out yet again with your 'opinion"on people's ability to write poems.

Let me tell you, it takes a good writer to see a good writer..and you ain't it.

And I would not want to be friends with you if you were growing on my ass.

Not coming back anymore to discuss this, so you can have your pathetic last say now and be done with it. Throw in as much hathred as you can;)..big man.

Or don't. This sniping back and forth has no place in a public forum. Take it to PM, or better yet, let it die.

I am not going to adress this person ever again, Sib, rest assure.

I noticed Anna left..that leaves a very small mod squad...did she say why she left, or is that private?

"and Jane that's nice of you, but if 22 people pm you with a selection, well you get the point"

I'll let you know when it happens. Already got one PM and I read all of the poems inside of it (unfortunately only one was written in the last week and is therefore qualified for the weekly).

Ingrid, we'll let everyone know about Anna as soon as all the mods know about her. Good eye!

Ok, thanks Jane. I didn't really know her, but do feel it's kind of sad she left this quietly.

Genesis summary

He just said let there be light
Then let there be a dark night
Maybe a moon
An afternoon
And an Eve that's out of sight

I like what a folk singer did with the story of Abraham
Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61

Heaven is in your reach, when you believe

Poetry is like the blue sky.. getting closer rarely makes your mood bluer
Bob started out playing with the R&B masters but he is better known by a variety of folk

This is not at all like a poem, but it's a rap
direct your questions to a chick, or a chap
" The devil's in the alley. the mule's in the stall
you can say what you want
we've heard it all"
If you are looking for a chat
The Club is really where it's at.

I won't and can't quote the former mod that gave a warning fit for a flood that there is a place for everything on this site. Today is yesterday's tomorrow and I still have trouble with what is a poem and what is a quote.

author: Kevin
status: member
date: 2009.10.08 08:30

[ post answer ]
I have a quote here from Michael about this issue Bob.

"You know man, I'm not trying to rock the boat, because I love boats, I mean I think I was one of the animals Noah took on his boat...maybe like a Turtle or something..but Bob, poetry is alive like sexual energy..and you know, when I see a thread..sometimes I get all excited and it just flies out of me! I'm not trying to be bad, I want to be good..I want to be on the Ark...Bob, don't tell me I'm one of the animals that isn't aloud on board...I have so much...poetry to give"

I hope this helps Bob

All quotes are taken from a public thread called " Ask The Club " and is not a violation of confidentiality.

Is this a song or a poem?
http://youtu.be/pE4Ilqyd-FU

A few things:

1. How is the judging system more biased now than it has ever been? On most weeks, five different judges vote. Most leave comments. They are rotated quite regularly. Members even get to vote on judges. As far as as I know, none of these things were in place a year ago. The award points system has always been the same. So... I don't understand this point.

2. I think people should be allowed to air their opinions/critiques (of poems and judges' comments)/congrats/questions on these weekly threads. Otherwise, they're pretty damn mechanical. Change "congrats weekly winners" to simply "weekly winners". These opinions should be worded with respect, but they should be there. I used to think there should be separate threads for discussion, but it simply didn't work when it was trialled.

3. Is this a poem?

I feel horrible. She doesn't
love me and I wander around
like a sewing machine
that's just finished sewing
a turd to a garbage can lid.

^
Not sure if its a poem but you literally made me laugh out loud! XD

I think it is, but it left me in stitches
ROFLMAO

You don't think the Iliad and the Odyssey are poems?

Aren't they by definition "epic poems"? Sure, they didn't rhyme, but they were written to have specific rhythm patterns and vowel emphases...

Poetry during ancient greek was defined differently (and had a far greater purpose) than poetry today. So by definition, they are still epic poems but, of course, we can have different opinions today.

Poetry, like any art, is defined by culture (and vice versa). Culture changes in time, so these definitions we tenaciously believe in varies with time.

Some people are actually distracted by rhythm and rhyme. This is Don Henleys feelings about the evening news
http://youtu.be/46bBWBG9r2o

Ingrid, I love you, dear, and I know you are such a great person, but ain't it hurtful to tell someone they are not wanted and everyone hates them? I guess this was not kind, contrary to your usual words, you are always understandin and loving.

^^

I don't think I said everyone hates him, dear. Sometimes even the kindest of people can be harsh, if so, they have good reasons. I will leave it at that.

Poetry, like any art, is defined by culture (and vice versa). Culture changes in time, so these definitions we tenaciously believe in varies with time.

^True. But I think the ancient Greeks had a pretty firm grasp on poetry, one that carries into modern day. If anything, we've included their definition, and added on to it.

The beauty of now is that "poetry" includes all that is old and its forms, as well as all that is new and being invented. I've seen poems with only one word, and poems that stretch into novels... I think that, like art, poetry can only be defined by the whole of the work that has been and will be produced, because the boundaries are always stretching to include more and more styles and topics. If they didn't, poetry would be quite boring, wouldn't it?

I agree, wholeheartedly, with the added input. :)

The problem with the "post-modern" poems, like Brautigan's poem above, is that they are prone to a lot of literary crticisms on poetry due to lack of poetic device. Just because one line gives a "good" metaphor makes the whole piece, poetry, can it?

They still get published though not because of the work in question but because of who the author is, and it all depends on the publication and editors within the publication.

Stretching new styles and bounderies, I understand, must not be done suddenly. Sometimes the poet must write a sound article that makes this new "style" part of poetry. And if the article makes a good argument, which passes a new style of poetry, then one could begin writing this new style of poems. But the critics may continue arguing against this new style or this new established poetic theory.

Critics that say "this is a poem and this is not a poem" will never die. Even in philosophy, people still debate for and against Aristotlean Metaphysics.

The best to do is listen and take what we can learn from them yet continue going on...

Is everybody agreed that we should have discussion about the weekly winners in future winner threads, for those winners who agree to it?

It could also depend on the Movement, I guess.

Like the Dadaist movement

Do you guys know cummings' grasshopper poem?

read it here: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15402

I'm not a fan of such technique, for other styles could have sufficed the author's aim. But some critics coming from an imagist or dadaist perspective may defend such poem:

"The important fact to grasp is that the spatial arrangement is not imitative in itself... it is rather that the spacing is governed by the disruption and blending of syllables and the pause and emphasis of meaning which produce a figurative equivalent for the subject of the poem, as the reader reads in time. As the reader gropes and fumbles his way along this jumble of syllables and letters, his mind is gradually building up the connections which normally obtain among them--"grasshopper, who, as we look, now upgathering into himself, leaps, arriving to become, rearrangingly, a grasshopper." When the reader has reviewed the entire poem once or twice, he recreates in his mind the very effect of a grasshopper leaping, which Cummings is describing as upgathering, leaping, disintegrating, and rearranging." - Fieldman.

How about postmodern art (found art) such as Duchamp's Fountain, which is just an upside down urinal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)

or John Cage's song entitled "4'33", which is just all *silence*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E

Those artworks above are, well, still art. But they group themselves in a particular movement. So in conclusion, we may keep debating whether one is a poem or not, but if one indeed passes as one... we can take a step forward and argue against the movement it belongs (by say, writing an argumentative article), or share our opinion against the poem. The former is more scholarly, while the latter is based on educational opinion. - still useful.

The Poetess. Smileyface etc.

Thanks for that piece of information. I totally disagree with you, but how good of you to support those you feel, for whatever reason, are being unfairly treated.

I huh back at you. I was responding only to the post where you addressed me.

??

People give opinions without being asked, especially in a public discussion forum. I'm sure you must have noticed that. I was giving you a complimentary one. But I gather it has been received like an offering of a sweet gummi bear to bubbling sodium chlorate. Unexpected, entertaining and fiery.

Yeah, if I'm teasing somebody with insult, it usually means I have good respect for them. In fact, there is almost an inverse relationship with my visible respect and inherent respect for certain people.
I also have a healthy amount of respect for everybody, whether I know them or not. If I don't know them and I want to approach them with any real criticism, I usually have to word things more carefully than normal. This is tedious, but I find it's more productive, given the sensitivities of the human ego.

The Poetess... uhhh. I think there is a bit of a communication barrier here at the moment. I was, in fact, only responding to your post whether you believe it or not. And you must have noticed an opinion because you brought it up, which I then addressed as well. I'm slightly confused. But also, on the whole, like you, uncaring.

Can't resist sharing this though it is not to continue the difference between a poem essay, prose and a joke debate
or even fair and deserve

Legal Humor - Lawyer Jokes - Attorney Jokes
The difference between stop and slow down.

Monday, November 17, 2008, 10:04 PM
Posted by Administrator
A lawyer rolls through a stop sign and gets pulled over by a sheriff's deputy.

The deputy says, "License and registration, please."

"What for?" says the lawyer.

The deputy says, "You didn't come to a complete stop at the stop
sign."

Then the lawyer says, "I slowed down, and no one was coming."

"You still didn't come to a complete stop, says the deputy. Your license and registration, please."

The lawyer says, "What's the difference?"

"The difference is you have to come to a complete stop, that's the
law. License and registration, please!" the deputy says.

Lawyer says, "If you can show me the legal difference between slow down and stop, I'll give you my license and registration; and you give me the ticket. If not, you let me go and don't give me the ticket."

"That sounds fair. Please exit your vehicle, sir," the deputy says.

At this point, the deputy takes out his nightstick, starts beating the lawyer with it and says, "Do you want me to stop, or just slow down?"

Mike, is that a joke!?

It was told to me twice as a joke though I feel it to be on topic due to the many simili we have discussed in congratulation threads and run off from those threads.

Some have have expressed the feeling that interpretations can be literally jokes.

Poetess, I believe Abby was responding to your defense of Bob. I'm not sure how you mistook her words to mean she ignores the poetic talents of lesser known members?
Not my business, but I hate to see you two bickering over a miscommunication.

Speaking of babies, the first of my many cousins had one recently. I'm going out to New York to see the little tyke in 1 month.

"...it was a good story or article, but not a poem, so how could a poem be critiqued if one doesn't even consider it a poem to begin with..."

Well, the story, article, poem, or however you want to refer to it WAS critiqued by several people, with one person in particular helping me to shape it into a better poem... not because I wanted to please anyone in particular, but because all my poems are "works in progress," even those that have won a contest.

I invite this poetry community to give it another read, and by all means, feel free to critique it, comment on it, give your opinion, or tear it apart if you want, so long as it is done in a helpful and constructive way. In other words: don't harp on what it isn't, but rather, focus on what it could be.

As for the young poetess from Syria who denies the truthfulness of the events discussed in this poem, this information was obtained from your fellow countrymen and women who have fled the violence into other countries to tell their stories, as well as from news reporters and civilians, who risked their lives to report what is happening to the outside world.

I'm sure, one day you will be grateful to all those who sacrificed their lives in an attempt to make your country free.

Lol
I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence. by William F. Buckley.
Carry on, I don't want to kill the discussion.

SS

Most early poets had to play the cat and mouse game with those who would moderate expression.
In those days authority was granted by powerful administrators.

I leave for a little bit and look at the trouble you get yourself into Bob.

I've seen far worse things said to you, and I'm sure you've had even worse said to you through the PM system. Looks like you'll have to dust off that 'complain' finger (even though I know it's not in your style) if that's how things will be moderated.

I'm all for things being fair, the mods and everyone else knows this. If Bob gets penalized as should the other guilty parties.

The actual aspect of dissecting a poem and providing constructive criticism I think is great. But during that process some egos do get bruised as we all tend to be biased towards our own work. As most of the time a lot of emotion is put into what we write. It has a lot of meaning and stings a little to hear it's anything other than fantastic. I think when you submit your work you are already agreeing to the terms that your poem will be discussed. It is after all on the world wide web. Anyone can take it into a forum and dissect it. If that type of stuff isn't for some then perhaps they could write on their poem *Not submitted for weekly contest. Senior members please do not vote.*
Then senior members know that the poet wishes to just have their work on the site and not considered for the contest. That could work or it could back fire. Just an idea.

HAHAHA Poetess you really can't read can you?

Bob or anyone for that matter would you like to explain this one or should I?

"If Bob gets penalized as should the other guilty parties. "

Read this for starters. It says if Kiko was not penalized for what he said to Bob then Bob should NOT be penalized. If Bob was, (which he was) then the other person involved should also be penalized. Personally I don't think any kind of penalty should have been given. But apparently I didn't make that clear enough.

Will I always have to give you the simple version of what I'm trying to say every time I post? Because it's already becoming a nuisance.

Play nice.

Are you making threats Poetess?? I don't think that's a very wise thing to do. I don't think that's allowed on here.

I always despise pesky little flies.

Your inability to comprehend my posts is not my problem. Don't use the language excuse if you're going to try to insult another person or tell them to 'calm down'. That's simply a case of, if you don't know what you're talking about, the best thing to do is to say nothing at all.

I assure you I can write darling. I'm actually getting a laugh at how you're trying to personally insult me. It's a good try, no really it was. Next time come with better material though, it lacked fire and emotion.

But alas your shoe size is showing, and I have things to do.

Cheers :D

Amanda I like the idea of posting within the poem do not nominate, but it backfired on me...:/ I once added that to my poem and it got more nominations than I've ever had. I think people thought they were being funny, but it wasn't to me. I guess if someone posts that and it does end up nominated, the judges will know not to vote for it, so it wouldn't end up on the weekly winner thread.

Britt.

An idea.. far off idea as I know it's the admin that could only do it.

But along with the check mark to say that everything is spelled correctly. Also have a check mark that says. "Add to Weekly Contest". Then only those who selected that option would have the 'vote' icon for senior members.

Again far off idea that I realize is hard to implement without the Admin.

In any case I like the idea of dissecting the poems. After all it helps everyone see something that's good enough to be on the front page could still use some fixes here and there.

Ohhh mods, add that to the honey do list please! That would be awesome, and it'd definitely be helpful for those who don't want certain poems eligible to win. Sometimes poetry is too personal to the writer, they don't want it ripped to shreds.

Maybe it could work. Janis has been seen online and fixed the activation issue.