Translations?

I just wondered if the rules have changed (or if there is a rule) for members posting material that is not their own onto their account...translating it into english? Even if they give credit to the actual author? I remember a previous member...Genuine Lavender was made to remove a poem she had translated and posted on her acount a few years back although she too had given proper credit to the author. When we use a certain line from someone else's work and incorporate it in our own poems we have to give credit so...a whole translation which is open to comments and more importantly votes...this just doesn't seem right to me...so....what is the rule...and if there isn't one...can the mods discuss it and vote on it??

I have like 5 translated poems.... and I never got a message from a mod to remove any...

so I guess there is no rule for that

Are they direct translations? I mean...as close as you can get when you translate them? I know some words just won't translate so substitutes are used?

Of course they are indirect translations... I add some new thoughts.. I remove some.... (for example in my latest, I added thoughts, changed words, and removed big parts).. that's why "personal" translation.. which differs from "direct" translation

So...what percentage would you say was yours and what percentage would be the original version?

Works of another which do not fall within the Fair Use exception must be removed.

If a translation is sufficiently removed from the original as to constitute a new work, it may fit into the Derivitive Work exception.

Whether a new translation fits that situation is a case of first impression for us. The mods will need to discuss it and come to a decision.

Please indicate on the works how much is literal & how much is original.

Just tell us in in layman's english Larry...please...one line two?

You cannot copy someone's translation here. Anything else we need to discuss

Thank you...I understood that part :)

If we like a poem so much and want to share it on here, wouldnt we just post it in a forum so everyone can enjoy it??

Properly cited

See
http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/copyright_law.html

So... in reading that we can in fact do translations?

They never used to be allowed before, especially if the translation is in a language that the mods did not know.. you can't tell how the translation is done - more of an inspiration or was it just moved into English and changed a few words?

Because if I took a song and just changed a few words into my own, that would be deleted for plagiarism here.

Well someone else who knows both languages can stay in contact with the Mods regarding the translated poems, we are not a lot but we are quite enough, anyone chosen by the Mods can help assure whether it's a proper translation or not, ofcourse their should be trust over here.

Despite the rules over here, being a Translation Student I know there are rules for translation that should be followed, else it would be a plagiarism itself and the original author might sue the translator if applied major meaning changes.

My main purpose of translating an Arabian (specifically Lebanese since all my translated poems are for the same singer) poem is just showing people our culture... how we think... what we feel.. etc...

There are parts that I translate as they are, not word by word because it wouldn't make sense, but the same idea/thought. However, there are totally different ideas, too.

So, should I delete my poems?

I would say yes LP, its unfortanet, but instead of using someone elses work to show us your culture and how the Lebanese think and feel

And I would say save your opinion lol.. I am waiting for Larry or any other mod to answer.

Sorry, but either way, I would rather see your own voice on your culture not the voice of someone famous. Ive been to Afganistan and Iraq, both have many simularities, not counting the fact that they both harbor groups who want death to the Americans, some of the food, customs, and a few other things. I have no clue about Lebanon other then the hatred for Israel that seems to be a big thing amongst the Arabic culture has a whole.

Copyright regarding translations is not simple.

The translation itself is a derivative work, therefore eligible for copyright protection of its own. However, only a copyright owner can authorize a translation, so that a translation of a work within 75 years after the author's death is still an infringement. Even if authorized by the author, the translation remains with the original author.

Any works which have passed into the public domain may be translated without infringement. If a person is paid to translate the work, the employer, not the translator, retains the copyright.

Posting them as your own work, however, is still a different matter. Simply translating a work does not give the right to publish it under your profile any more than publishing public domain works already in English, EVEN IF properly cited to the original author. The implicit rule in PnQ is that any work under the member's profile is the creation of the member, not merely that the work does not infringe on a copyright.

The criteria to look at is HOW MUCH of the original work is carried over versus how much of your own work is incorporated into the translation.

A poem translated from the original language using generally acceptable word choices would not likely be allowed.

Translation of a poem which incorporates substantial differences from the original AND WHICH incorporates the author's selection of not so obvious word choices is more likely to be accepted provided the original work is properly cited and is available in other translations to substantiate claims of originality. Sometimes you look at how intuitive the word choice is in determining the originality of the work.

Note that "more likely" does not create a hard and fast rule of acceptance. It would have to be on a case by case basis. This requirement for substantial moderator involvement is probably why there has been a ban on such works hitherto and still may result in it now, depending on the mods' determination. Since we have not yet had the discussion in the mod room, any reliance on my initial discussion would be premature.

SAMUEL:

I think I sounded rude, but I didn't mean, so I should be sorry :P

My own voice is all over my other social poems, and I find in those old songs somethings that should be heard, that's why I translate....

Dude, 'for every action, there's a reaction'... so, when your country invades other countries military, economically, socially, kills millions, steals their petroleum, claims there are nuclear programs running there, and segregates the different sects found there by letting kill each other,,,,, then NATURALLY, the reaction would be as such........ why are you surprised, ha? [I'm not saying here that I'm a pro-terrorism, just saying..]

As for the hatred for Israel (by Israel, we mean Zionists), it wouldn't fade till the world ends (Hatred is from both sides, if you know that.... ie; Zionists hate us. We hate Zionists). This hatred of course has million of reasons....... the main things: raping Palestine... killing millions... massacring the innocent.... and blah blah blah of the blood the Western media [being the pet of the Zionism Lobby which conquers the world], "unfortunately", hides from you!

You're both off topic.

Larry,

so... I'll wait for your mod discussion to know if I should delete it?

-- lol, we are having a debate-like discussion, can't we? :P

Abed, you guys are off topic for real :P lol shut up!

And, well I think with what Larry posted over, which is some of the stuff I took in my Legal course LOL...you should not be writing more translations and submitting them as your own.

Even me when I get paid, it is very true that the only copy I can keep is a stamped one which I can neither sell nor buy nor use for personal aims, only for future references when applying for more jobs, and to keep a copy of all the work that I have done during my experience in this major.

So that's how I see, regarding your OLD ones, I don't know maybe you could keep, but not allowed to do more, or you will have to take off the old ones too.

Maybe Larry could explain more?

Hahaha.. I won't ever translate once again... It's causing enough drama already :P

Sorry Larry, but either way I am enjoying the debate. And no LP, Im not surprised at all, Im just saying they both have those groups, but the group in Afganistan confuses me, we helped that EXACT group fight the Russians, gave them weapons and everything, Bin Ladin attacked us, so us being in Afganistan, in my opinion, was started by the oposition. Us in Iraq, well I can face fact, the US is a money hungry capitolistic hell hole, but I still love her, also I understand that we might be setting up for Iran with the way things are rolling. too bad for me my job is to fight where Im told to fight, regardless if I agree with it or not. I have come to terms that sometimes I fight for next to nothing, but I try not to look too much into the politics anymore. Also, yes I knew the Isrealies hate you too. Arabs blame them, they blame you, its not my place to say whose right or wrong between those two cultures, becosue really with how much propaganda that comes from both sides, Im too confused so I just stoped fallowing that war. But what I want to know is what about the Laboness is seperate from the rest of the strong Islamic countries. I understand your foundness of tradition, I am too, but IF your told you need to delete your poems, it is still possible for you to share in a Forum post. you generate alot of attention around here Im sure a good amount of people will read it and enjoy it rather you post in a forum or on your page.

SORRY, I was in the middle of typing that and didnt see you telling us to shut up.

Lol no I just think the OP wanted to voice their opinion, since she was gone for a short while and probably thought there happened to be a change of certain rules. However, don't take it hard, I know you have a huge heart, and a big mind. big smile*

Lol Samuel I asked Abed to shut up, not both of you. Though with all due respect it would be cool if you do :P (jk, breathe)

Sorry Larry, but either way I am enjoying the debate.
^
I suggest you guys to start a new thread then, a debate one.

I'm just asking so I know for myself, lol. I didn't mean to stir it back up and have all the chaos.... knock it off guys! :P

Lol, I get ahead of myself alot

I deleted the two "double posts" by Samuel & Abed. The exact same posts were copied by them to their own thread & are now redundant.

My understanding has been that everything you post under your name (as a poem or quote) must be written by you. If there is uncertainty between the mods at this point, we might have to have a conversation as a group so that we can clarify the finer points.

So have the mods discussed this yet and....do we have a ruling?

Yes, I believe Larry will be posting up our official ruling soon. Thanks for the reminder!

Thanks for the update Jane...much appreciated.

p.s.....can you ask him to post in layman's english..as in..a straight yes or no? haha!!!

Haha, Hellon! I have viewed what Larry will be posting and while it will come with a little more than a yes or no I am very sure you will understand it.

Better stay home tonight then....I'd hate to be hung over trying to read it LMAO!!!!

Oh..here we go..Larry has signed on...Holds breath!!!.....I'm old Larry and I smoke so.....take that into consideration please haha!!!

I'm on my cell phone so you will need to wait til I'm out of the library & down at the desk top.

I'm old. It may take a bit.

______________________________ <<< me flat lining :)

Tommorow is fine...hours, days minutes...there are all precious after all :)

The consensus among the mods, consistent with Janis' position, is that translations of another's work are not allowed in the members' profiles.

This posting will serve as warning to all who have translations on their site to remove them unless they are translations of their own work.

Specifically, if you have translated another person's work, even if you have incorporated much of your own ideas, it must be removed.

The age of the original material, or whether it was authorized or in the public domain, is of no consequence.

You have until 4 September 2012 to remove these works, after which they will be treated as plagiarisms or otherwise forbidden pieces.