I will as you all know defend myself

^^

Because you want a biscuit....lol...

ooooo @ Mel......Never to late for a biscuit :-)

^^^

No..dieting today :)

Juuuuuust one ....little.....itty.....bitty....biccy....lol :-P

Hellon.... lol

And I thought you were a master of humor (as you claim in all your posts)!
you couldn't even understand that little sentence?!

shame.

And I thought you were a master of humor (as you claim in all your posts)!

^^^

Which posts are they?...I don't remember self proclaiming anything about me?

you couldn't even understand that little sentence?!
^^^^

I didn't even get there buddy....

I know this may go beyond what Hellon wants.... so I'm not gonna' give you any more chances... If you want to swim afar, go ahead.. I won't be following you.

-

Anywany, I insist on that being a sarcastic statement. THAT's IT. Nothing MORE.

Insist all you want....who's listening apart from me?

If you don't want a sarcastic reply don't make a sarcastic post...

ZzZzZzZz

I'm in need of a nap.

Noura, come here; let's read together Love in the Time of Cholera.

^^^^

No longer sarcasm....that's just well.?...yeah just go to sleep....obviously your brain is needing it to sharpen up....let me tuck you in!!!!

Hmm this is interesting

it is simple those invasions served America well if we didn't count the money and men lost during the wars
so Dan is right to see that his country did nothing wrong during those invasions

but on the other hand Dan can't see the story from our side it is a simple as I said it above
while your country's benefit was in taking over those countries our benefit was in defending our own world
Dan let me ask u something
can u tell me how many innocent civilians did the U.S army kill while trying to stop terrorism ( as they claimed ) ? how many houses were razed? how many children became hairpins u were sad for your American families in 9/11 attacks and nobody can say that it isn't awful to see much death
but how many did The U.S kill in personal revenge on people who didn't do anything to it??
U.S wanted to stop terrorism instead it cause more

u need to admit it was not right doing this
and don't look to only one side of the coin.

Dan...I....what? I don't even know what to say right now. Oh wait...yes I do.

"We are to Blame America for all and everything related to violence and death un-mass"

Now you're blowing things out of proportion. I think you're out of arguments.

Also, you used quotation marks which were supposedly in place to quote me:

'"America invades countries (Jordan again)and to say they don't colonize is untrue, they colonized and killed all the Native Americans"'

I didn't say that. I said this:

"What about all of the Native Americans that have been slaughtered because they wouldn't adhere to the ways of modern society? It was the same thing - ultimatum. "You can come and live like us white folk, or we can kill you and your families."'

No...really! Scroll up! I really did say that. Hahahaha.

Not anywhere did I say that they killed all Native Americans. Obviously they didn't, but they certainly did kill a lot. If you don't think that this is true then you're out of your god forsaken mind. You're so interested in bringing up the past to make your points look good but when someone brings up a negative point about US history you try to stuff false words in their mouth.

Next time you try to improperly quote me, here are some tips:

ONE: Make sure I'm not going to come back, read it, point it out, and then trample all over it and tell every one else to check my previous post.

TWO: At least make sure that you do it in a different thread where we can't just scroll up to read my last post and see that what you've quoted and what I said are two very different things.

I really don't appreciate you distorting my words and am actually baffled at where this argument has gone. You are now assuming the position of a drowning man. Give up.

I will not be debating further with you unless it is to clarify more grotesque misquotes that you've taken the liberty of fabricating in the name of making yourself look good.

Dare I say that it was nice talking to you? Yeah, I do. In fact, I'm still enjoying it. Also, we're not friends like you said in your first post. I don't befriend people who lie in such an open and arrogant way.

Also, I admit I didn't watch the video that you posted - the sound on my computer is dead. I was thinking about watching it, but I'm not going to now, because I can only assume that it's propaganda that doesn't tell the truth in any way.

I wish you peace, brother. You need it.

-----------------------------------------------
On a side note:

I sincerely hope that none of our friends from the states find what I said offensive. I hold none of these things above your heads. (I feel like I don't need to say these things, but I just want to clarify). I just don't agree with war and aggression anymore and I CERTAINLY can't agree with people like Dan - mostly because he makes things up.

So...uhh....can I join in the little party in here? I heard about tea...is there coffee? Whiskey?

The truth is, none of you really know what is going on in Iraq. I know that because not even the soldiers over there know and i'll wager most of our politicians don't know. The people who really know don't ever, and I mean...ever talk about it.

We know what they want us to know, and even secrets and leaked documents are what they want us to know. The leaders of our world have had too much practice at information control for anyone on a poetry website to think they know the truth of a such a dangerous and complex situation.

I don't care how many articles or website you read, you don't know what is really going on. Even if you lived in Iraq you wouldn't know what is going on.

Get over it. You are all just debating various levels of false information.

ps, even if one of you did somehow stumble on the real truth, you'd never know if it was more real than some trashy political blog, because you cannot verify any of it.

I don't like it, but that is how it is.

JORDAN
thanks for bringing this up:

So...uhh....can I join in the little party in here? I heard about tea...is there coffee? Whiskey?

^
all at your service ^_^

----
I know if I am bothered I should just not come here in the 1st place, but the way you people keep talking to each other, and the none poetry talk that's really going astray, and off limits, is bothering and offensive for someone who believes in the virtual good relationship between us.

Ofcourse it should not all be poetry related, that's totally not MY message. It's just really disappointing.

It is my problem since the Mods are tolerating it, but I had to express that little thought even if it's a little complaint that will be left on the shelf to be wrapped with dust. Poetry is good.

Thank you Kevin, that's almost what I needed to see written by someone over here.

In the words of the immortal tupac
"Learn to see me as a brother instead of two distant strangers, and that's how it's supposed to be! How can the devil take a brother if he's close to me?"

I see no changes, all I see racist faces, misplaced hate makes disgrace to races, we under, I wonder what it takes to make this! One better place let's erase the wasted

I agree with you, Kevin, that nobody really knows the whole truth..... of course since MEDIA is a big fat liar!

But... you may be mistaken regarding Iraqis... everyone living against a rifle opening knows what's going on....

Nana I'm really glad to know that there's whiskey. it feeds my inner Hunter S. Thompson.

Lol Jordan, I actually want something very heavy for you. I need you drunk, for personal uses.

I'm listening.

Kevin wins. I'd repost his post just to make sure everyone gets a good look at it, but this is good enough.

I'm listening.

^
that's totally not drunk. O.O

Hey Kev well said bro
We live in world of misinformation starting from the top down, wheels within wheels.

This is my 5 cents worth..For most of us our greatest achievement will be passing on our genetics to the next generation, what i consider to be the true meaning of life, without that our species dies. I'm not saying that's all there is to life by a long shot, yet It's the one primordial instinct we share with every species on this planet, be it plant, animal, virus or bacteria.

Look at history, look at say 1000 - 2000 years ago, there are maybe 100 - 1000? individuals that are remembered form that period, that we have any knowledge of, the rest, the millions upon millions, we know nothing, nothing at all, they may as well have not existed, yet they did, they passed on their genetics to you and I. In another 1000 - 2000 years will that be any different? I very much doubt it. Yes we have better records, photos on DVD's etc. But people will view us no differently, the only significance we will have had to them, is we will have passed on our genetics and no more.

We all share a common gene pool we are one species, yet it almost seems to have become successful, we have broken down into tribal groups, factions, where we appear to be in more control of our own destiny, our own genetics

Can you imagine the would having a central government? where there is universal peace and we all pull together as one race. It would never work, there would always be factions within factions pulling each way fighting for power and control, where you fight to say one set of genetics is more successful than another.

Unfortunately where you have one country, one tribe, one religion, one individual coming up against another, there will always be conflict.

And that I think, is human nature...The only way we would ever truly unite is if we ever came up against another species that threatened our very existence as a species.

Nicko and Kev, thanks for popping in. I love seeing level headed comments. I admit my last big post was completely out of line - of course that's also why I decided to back out of the argument.

Nana...so you need me for something that I won't ask about or remember? Uh oh....I'm not sure if I'm afraid or endlessly intrigued. Hehehe

No it wasnt out of line at all, i think we all need to voice our opinions...
I enjoy reading your responses

Nana...so you need me for something that I won't ask about or remember? Uh oh....I'm not sure if I'm afraid or endlessly intrigued. Hehehe

^
sounds perfect so far. lol

"Misinterpret". ahh yes. The single quotation was to indicate a paraphrase. Wholly justified. Unruly discussion? Eh?
Reba says, she pities me for thinking all people who aren't my country people are lesser. Reba reads and gathers information of which she chooses. We are NOT talking about the people who live life with out conflicting harm on others. Our discussion is emphatically in detail that we are discussing, terrorists, those who commit crimes against humanity, and those who would force upon others. That can't be any clearer.

This whole discussion started by OP posting about World Trade Center being a fabrication. And I responded. Others input we had no business in Afghanistan. I offered reason why. I was lambasted.
some said I am out of argument so I make up stuff. Others run out of ammunition and resort to name calling.

Does anyone really think the USA had a craving to go into a country just to kill? If that the case then there surely is reason for pity. (Reba). I was told I shouldn't go back to history, and then we go back to history when it's convenient.

Kevin says we don't know what's going on. Though I have complete total respect for Kevin I disagree. We DO know what is going on. But yes it is complicated. Iraq has conflicting factions of their religious believes or how they worship and lead their lives. They've spent centuries fighting and killing for dominance, shaky situation but, they are given the chance through a democracy to try and work into it. For circumstances they are doing the best they can. All the bombings and killings going on now are from insurgency and into witch are recruited those who don't want change. They don't want a democratic government. And Kevin is right to say there is nothing we can do. Yes, but if it includes innocent citizens we must try. That's the track record for Great Britten and The USA.

When the U.S. supported Afghanistan during the soviet invasion they could have had similar circumstances but chose the old path once they regained and disposed of Soviets. A radical and with care not upset Reba...I shall say "ruthless Taliban" instead of saying backward primitive animals whose main job is to torture.

When the plane swere high jacked, 2 ran into the WTC, 1 hit the pentagon and 1 the passengers tried dto take charge and the plane was deliberately run in to the ground. Forensic tracking began. Money trails,. Visual airport videos. Lists of names wee tracked through out Europe. The path led to AlQuada. (And admittedly so Bin laden. Despite what is told in media, congress and overwhelmingly Democrats voted to go get them know matter where and in what country. Facts are facts.

Jordan, I assure you nothing is made up. Perhaps it just clashes with what you have assessed the problems to be.

Why is it when the USA saves and lifts up opinion is they want something for nothing or to steal something. And when other countries destroy, its OK???? A puzzle beyond the relm of a mans thinking.

and to lebanesephenix , Iraqies have been looking at more then a gun barrel under Hussien. Ask a Kurd, Ask the swamp tribes of southern Iraq. Ask all the suni's who were tortured and killed. The gun barrels they face now are from those who do not believe in a free sociaty.

I am not saying that Saddam Hussein was an angel. But he didn't destroy a whole country!!!

There is NO Iraq now.... just like there is no Palestine, there is NO Iraq.

So do you mean that USA's reign over Iraq now is better that Saddam's?

Iraq was a very strong country, economically and laws-wise... and now..... it is like a dead zone!

Fixing its problems is the lamest of excuses, still....

And still, your excuses are the lamest.

Why don''t you understand?

It is BLOOD we are talking about.

If you want to prevent nuclear weapons going on, you kill a whole NATION????? (AND THERE WAS NO NUCLEAR WHATSOEVER!!!)..... Excuses... Excuses... and LIES.

Please Dan, get a life.
You are ruthless, blinded, and do not give a damn to all those women who lost their houses, babies, husbands, siblings, INTEGRITY...... to all those who are afraid to leave their houses because Mr. USA is segregating sunnis and shia's by supporting one over the other, and it is for the sake of what? Gimme a break here... for the sake of PEACE? You do not even have a single drop of peace in your heart.... You KILL and say: we are saving the world.... HaHaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....

BUT, OUR 'TIME' WILL COME.
IT WILL COME.

In all history, not a single nation thrived for eternity......

the Ottoman reign lasted for hundreds of years, but as it soared, it fell down.......

and this INJUSTICE will fall down....

No wonder all those natural disasters are happening.

I can't believe these political debates are still on this site ever since I left it.

I'm only going to give you this quote, for those rationalizing the American war on the Arab/Islamic world:
"How can you have a war on terrorism when war itself is terrorism?"

And always remember there's no such a thing called Terrorism, the media invented this word.

Well the last time I checked on my body organs they gave me conclusive evidence that I belong to the male species
And my name brother
Is rabea which means spring in Arabic
Peace love and happiness

"Jordan, I assure you nothing is made up. Perhaps it just clashes with what you have assessed the problems to be."

Alright. But that doesn't change the fact that you blatantly put words in my mouth. So good job not apologizing for that.

Dan, can I ask where you get most of your information about the situation in Iraq?

Abu Ben Adam, may his tribe increase,
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace
And saw, within the moonlight of his room,
Making it rich, like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Abu Ben Adam bold
And to the presence in his room he said,
"What writest thou?"
The vision raised its head
And with a look of all sweet accord answered,
"The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abu.
"Nay not so" Replied the Angel.
Abu spoke more low
But cheerily still and said
"I pray thee then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow-men."
The angel wrote and vanished.
The next night it came again with awaking light
And showed the names of whom love of God had blessed.
And lo! Ben Adam's name led all the rest.

-- by James Henry Leigh Hunt

One thing I would add to this debate if that's what it is

America gets a fair old canning in this thread and is blamed for many of the world's woes. I think some should look in their own back yard before throwing stones indiscriminately. Because what you must realize is that every American has the right to vote and put in power the people that run the government so in effect the people are the government.

So ranting's like LP's last post, which i feel is full of hatred aimed at every American on this site, maybe not his intention but that in effect is what it is

And America is not alone in being involved in the Middle East, there are something like 20 other countries that have troops or advisors over there. Australia had 5 soldiers killed in Afghanistan (Central Asia) 2 days ago yet we are told we are still committed to bringing peace to that region. Explain that to the families of those killed. Australia has nothing economically to gain from being involved other than a humanitarian role.

With all this bile and rhetoric why should we bother?

Wait,
Since when Is Afghanistan a part of the middle east?
Did you just add something to my knowledge or are you falsely informed?

Thought it boarders Iran you would classify it as central Asia I suppose, as per this thread which mentions Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan so they are all in the mix, if you want to be pedantic go ahead, but hopefully you get the crux of what i'm saying?

Tell you what i'll add that to my previous thread to make it more precise.

Larry :)!

For the hundredth time..... I'm not talking about the people. It's only about the government.

And even if the government is chosen by the people (directly or indirectly), well... people should know that those politicians promise their public a better world (they might have the best intentions), but when they become presidents, nothing is done............ IE; I bet any PnQer who becomes a US president would do the same... NOT because he/she is a bad person.... but because he/she is obliged to do that for the sake of those big, rich, and behind the scenes lobbies with hidden agendas.

Kevin- I have followed terrorism from the early years when just Israel and Palestine were engaged. Awakening came when Arafat ordered assassination of members of a Olympic Unit through the first WTC bombing. From that point on I have followed both arguments of the blame game. I suppose as we support nations that build we are sometimes involved in the acts that seemingly unwise. Or dangerous. But in the long run are main concerns and it has been our philosophy that a happy nation is a safe nation.
Lebbonesephenix purposes that Iraq never invaded a country. I suppose he is too young to know Kuwait. I suppose he is too young to know 180,000 Kurdish people were chemically murdered by Hussein. He is too occupied with in himself to be outwardly interested. I suspect however he studies real hard how to ridicule others and say nothing.

Some fail or avoid recognition that we also saved Muslims In Bosnia Herzegovina from ethnic cleansing. As a small example of what the USA does. As do other civilized nations to an extent. The list of saving and protecting is huge and grows every year...millions upon millions.

I hate war and death as much as anyone. I am appalled as others are to see babies, young and old innocent people blown to shreds just for the crime of shopping, or going to eat in a restaurant, or ride a bus. All for what. Civil people ask that disagreements be compromised. But blame goes to the defender and not to the O-fender. I witnessed also the World Trade Center towers just before they fell. I could see the black smoke billowing and then to see even from the distant 25 mile away hills of Hunterdon county NJ the collapse. For what? What has the United States done to Al Qaeda that warrants that.. Then to find out those 14 members of the community you live in were in that collapse. Wives Husbands Children Moms and Dads lost their way of happy lives. To think of them (and others) in that collapse...burned, shredded disintegrated...only specs of only DNA recognizable pieces.

Is /does anyone here care about the death to children and women and families being wiped out in Syria. Escalation has claimed 3000 lives last week alone. The worst carnage yet. Does anyone think we should go in and stop the carnage. I suppose as soon as we think of something to steal, we will.

I think I may start a thread Titled; "What would the world look like today if there never was a United States of America?????? Would we all be speaking, German? Japanese? Russian? Arabic?.......
I'm sure answers will all be creative. Can't wait.

people who consistantly attack "the rich and lobbyists are either young and not working or who are older and fail at producing.
If there were no rich, then only the government leaders would be rich.ie..the pope
By the way, lobbyists? lobbyists could be , the Red CRoss, The Cancer Society, Womens rights, Human rights,,....etc...you get the picture...

Wtf has the presence/absence of USA to do with speaking English?

anyway.. I can't answer you..

just wait... and wait more... I told you before: there is no nation that lasted for eternity.. so I guess you will know after....

anyway.... I'm done here.

If you think I said NOTHING regarding the blood we are spilling.... and the price we are paying.... then you are truly a heartless creature..... go get a life.

Abed
A wise man doesn't argue with a fool because from a distance
It's hard to tell who's who!!!

Respect the age difference
You simply don't tell someone who's twice your age
To get a life no matter what ignorance they feed upon