Formed Poerty Challenge!

Hi all :)

Thought I would also try this for the very first time (great to lose your virginity in other ways haha!)

'Sanctuary'

A scared place, I'd often go
music played, and lights were low
I'd lay and rest my roily mind
for it was here that I will find
......you, to help me grow

scars that lay below my belt
wounded from a soul-less welt
cries that haunt and echoed loud
....heard within from darkened clouds

opening up, my heart of shame
help me heal from all my pain
you bestowed, the space I need
listening to everything I bleed
aid, my search for a warming glow
... this is, the place I'd always go.

Hello Michael,

nice to see your addition to this popular thread.

Like Darren, this is a great effort. Where's the but? But, the rhyme scheme is off. The aa,bb line throughout need to be the same rhyme. i.e. (a) lines need to rhyme and (b) line all rhyme. The refrain should be about the first 1/2 of the first line, about 2 metric beats. This refrain should then be repeated as the final line in stanza 2 and 3. Working on a refrain that sounds right is worth the extra time to work on.

Your meter is pretty good - you obviously have experience in this area. It's not perfect, but neither is mine. We need Ben or Luce to help out here. Help!

Okay, work on the rhyme scheme and the refrain and let us see what you have. If you need help, let us know - this thread is our classroom.

Kitty - you have made huge improvements. Each line reads well, I can hear the beats. There are area that still stumble, like:

(I just) (wanted) (a band) (of gold)
(You owned) (my heart), (I was) (so sold)
^
the 2nd line - 'so sold' - the alliteration detracts from the meaning, for me.
How about:
You owned my heart and I was sold

(Your time) (you can)(not now) (extend)
^
again, the words, not and now detract.
How about:
Your time, for me, you will not spend

I know that this must be the end
Is this the way our love unfolds?
^
this works just fine

Refrain - (Waiting for you)

As for your refrain - this works well in the 1st and 3rd stanza, but not so well in the 2nd. I admit, the refrains are tricky to get just right, otherwise they look like they have been blu-tacked on. :p

Gosh ... you're a task master! ... but I really appreciate it :-) Is this better?

Waiting for you

Waiting for you I grew so old
The light grew dim, my bones got cold
Now it’s too late to make amends
Not sure we can even be friends
Didn’t you want to have and hold?

How did our love so uncontrolled
Become the thing you would withhold?
My heart could then no longer mend
Waiting for you

I just wanted a band of gold
You owned my heart, and I was sold
Your time, for me, you will not spend
I know that this must be the end
Is this the way our love unfolds?
Waiting for you

PS "not even blu-tack" :p

I did have a question, I tried looking up different examples of rondeaus....

does the syllable count have to be 8 per line? I saw many poems like this, but how important is the syllable count compared to the rhyme scheme? Is it still a Rondeau if I did 10 syllables in one line and 8 in the other?

Hi POTP,

no, the metric beats can be 3, 4, 5 or more, just as long as they are the equal.

The exception is the refrain should be shorter, about 1/2 the length, I'd say.

I hope this helps.

Kitty - I'll get back to you later, unless someone else wants to comment.

Okay, Im back -

This is so much better, the meter is good and so it flows well. If I were to be picky though, I would want to see a refrain that flows equally as good. Sometimes the refrain has to be tweaked or changed, others, the last lines changed so their meaning leads nicely into the refrain. To be honest, this poems is finished, so I am just being picky, because this is a classroom.

I am also open for critique on my poem.

Larry, when you get time, this classroom is for all. We are happy to help.

Hellon, would it be worth posting your recent one here for comments?

thanks for having a look Mr D

To be honest, when we start talking about meter my eyes glaze over...
we then stumble into sonnet territory.

at this moment I'm out.

I would lose the essence of my poem.
Which backs up my 'forms are restrictive argument'
we then start writing with rules that turns a poem into a nonsense.

I am going to go sit in a corner, take a painting by numbers canvas, and cross out all the 2's.

god i hate poetry :-(

Okay Ben,

Let's look at yours - so to speak *coughs* :P

a (If all) (the clouds) (could hold) (my pain)
a (Then we)(would all)(be scorched)(by rain)
b (That was)(n't pure,) (but soaked) (in dearth -)
b (Degrad)(ing all) (the love) (on Earth.)
a (I fear) (I'd feel) (no joy) (again.)

a (I'm not) (the one) (who is) (to blame;)
a (she pois)(oned all) (the plant)(ed grain.)
b (It grew)(with rot) (and killed) (my mirth -)
R (If clouds) (could hold) (my pain.)

a (And now) (the storm) (has left) (a stain)
a (Of black) (that has) (become) (the bane)
b (Of life) (for me) (and dulled) (my worth;)
b (I damn) (the day) (that I) (was birthed.)
a (My life) (will nev)(er be) (the same.)
R (If clouds) (could hold) (my pain.)

^
Okay, that is a lot of work putting brackets around the metric beats. As we all can see there are 4 metric beats for each line, 3 for the refrain and the rhyme scheme is correct. All good so far.

Like I have mentioned on a couple of other rondeau poems - the refrain does not flow as nicely to my ear. Picky, but to be honest, Ben, you have not left me much to pick at! lol Maybe reducing it by a metric beat may help?

Also, and this is purely my preference. I feel this form lends itself to delicate poetry, gentle, wistful, mournful even. Your poem, I think, is emotionally charged, with the use of capitals, it sits quite assertively on the page, also, it almost spits out lines like:

It grew with rot and killed my mirth -

and

And now the storm has left a stain
Of black that has become the bane
Of life for me and dulled my worth;
I damn the day that I was birthed.

I admit, I often go against the grain, just for the sake of it. Your rondeau uses a traditional, whimsical sing song form to scream out a thrash metal rant.

All in all, an excellent, hard hitting poem.

Hi Darren,

I hear what you are saying. Meter is not everyone's cup of tea. Your free forms blow me away - you know that!

Forms are restrictive, like a sculptor working with a fragile material - when the right tools are used, a masterpiece can be created from marble.

All that I would say, when you have free time, watch some helpful clips on you tube. They explain this stuff much better than a novice like me.

To be honest, there are much easier formed poetry than this one. It is a hard one for anyone to cut their teeth on.

Keep writing, Darren. After all, not all masterpieces are created using marble.

Thanks so much Mr D, I'll take that and be proud! :-)

I hear what you're saying though Darren and I did have to alter the meaning of my poem slightly to make it 'fit' into this form.
But ...
I've learned a lot about meter which I didn't understand before and I think (hope) that will improve my usual rhyming poems. So it's been worth the effort I reckon.

=^.^=

Nice choice. My favorite poetry form is a Rondeau :]

Then sonnets and then Terza Rima.

I was almost positive that I had opened a “let’s converse using rondeau’s” thread before just like I did with the “let’s converse using sonnets” but I couldn’t find it. ( I probably just thought about creating one but forgot to do it. Oh well..)

MaryAnne,

“does the syllable count have to be 8 per line? I saw many poems like this, but how important is the syllable count compared to the rhyme scheme? Is it still a Rondeau if I did 10 syllables in one line and 8 in the other?”

The syllable count can be 10 per line, 8 per line, 6 per line, 12 per line... etc (in even numbers to make it easier if the poet wants to write it using meter)
The lines must be of the same metrical length. As far as the rules goes, it doesn’t necessarily talk about meter per se...

I mean, the way I learnt is that metrical length is the syllable count.

Meter, on the other hand, is a metrical length with a pattern.

There are different types of meter.
Examples: iambic, trochaic, anapest, dactylic and if I’m not mistaken there’s two more which I don’t remember.

However, like Mr. Darcy mentioned the refrain is usually 1/2 of the syllable count of the lines. If the lines are 10 syllables then the refrain is 5 syllables or shorter.

Also, depending on the judge, or whoever is judging a rondeau, some may still consider a poem a rondaeu even if only one line had 9 syllables instead of the 8 syllables that the other lines had. Some, will not consider it a rondeau.

Example:

Title: A top the mountain- a drop of hope

At the mountain top, I'll wait for you,
Like morning dews in Summer's hue.
I'll be a tear. I'll be a drop,
A perpetual drip of hope -
---------- that every soul pursues anew.

So when your climb may go askew
And you find green grasses turned blue
Don't stop - just know, I'll be a drop,
---------------- At the mountain top.

And if Winter comes past you knew
Like it did before, when birds flew
To southern fields for warmer lops,
Don't stop, just know, I'll be a drop,
Unfrozen [not cold] - to unfreeze your view
---------------- At the mountain top.

By: L.L. (Aka Everlasting)

The above poem is not consider a rondeau to some poets who are knowledgeable about meter, and metrical length and form poetry overall just because The metrical length is not all the same. However, to other poets who are less knowledgeable it is.

Now, this one is a Rondeau though is not entirely perfect. Can you guess why?

Title: A Caterpillar (Rondeau)

When flowers bloom, I'll see you soon.
I'll be a bug in a cocoon;
all set to fly towards the sky
to search for you - my butterfly.
Just wait for me, be like the moon

that comes at night and stays in tune,
remains in sight till afternoon,
for me to yearn to fly up high
-------------- when flowers bloom.

Just give me time, may be till June,
when I come out of my cocoon
I'll be like you - a butterfly,
prepared to fly into the sky
to hear with you how our love croons
--------------- - when flowers bloom.

Rondeau: aabba aabR aabbaR

Written by: L.L.

summer rain (rondeau)

withIN the RAIN, I HEARD your NAME
inHALED your EARTH SCENT as it CAME
I AM beREFT withOUT you NEAR
my HEART is FULL, of ACHing TEARS
... I’ll DROWN, in THIS, reLENTless PAIN

WANderING this WORLD inSANE
reTRACing YOU, inSIDE my BRAIN
where ARE you. .. is THAT you NEAR
.... withIN the RAIN

^^ I count 7 syllables in first line of the second stanza and on third line of second stanza.

The Capital letters is where I would put the stress on.

When I wrote mine I didn't really pay attention to meter and after checking, I too had to make some adjustments :)

Tony...I'm hopeless with meter...I've just admitted that I didn't pay attention when I wrote mine but after reading a little about it I would say...just like me, your lines are uneven but...I'm going to call on Michael to read over it???

Larry...I think your count it off too but...I'll also wait confirmation from Michael.....

Right, first off, thanks so much to Michael for his thorough breakdown of my attempt. Agreed on most points, especially the content - it's hard for a man like me to step away from miserable pieces of poetry , even when the form is a Rondeau, lol. But I will write another one and try to do it more delicately, I promise. The only thing I am a little confused with is the refrain being half the length - it doesn't mention that on shadow poetry, I don't think, it just states it should be a phrase or bit taken from the first line and has to be shorter - not sure there, though.
As for meter, I think in forms like this it is all important. Without it, there is no rhythm, things lose their flow and Michael's 'music' is never played, lol. I am not an expert but I have some idea so I will do my best to help with the basics.

Iambic meter is the meter we most frequently use - even in speech, words often naturally flow in iambic meter. All it means is that an unstressed syllable is followed by a stressed syllable. If I say the word 'regard', which part are you 'pushing' out and which part is unstressed? Say it - reGARD - two syllables, unstressed and stressed in that order. reGARD - the 'gard' is the bit you are 'pushing' out.

So, if I were to write a sonnet (as an example for meter) I need each line to be written in iambic pentameter - sounds confusing, but it's not. All that means is that it is written in iambic meter with five iambic feet - an iambic foot is a pair of syllables in the unstressed/stressed order mentioned above. So five iambic feet per line is ten syllables per line - which is what we need for sonnets.
(I'm only using sonnets to highlight meter as they are the form that comes easiest to me - but the meter thing applies to the rondeau as well, obviously which can also be written in iambic pentameter)

An example of iambic pentameter:

'if YOU and I could SIT beNEATH the TREE'

^^

A bit random, but the point's there! 10 syllables split into five iambic feet, unstressed/stressed. Say it out and you will see that all the words in lower case are the soft sounds and the words in upper case are stressed - the bit you 'push' out.

Iambic tetrameter uses the same idea exactly but this is 8 syllables per line in 4 iambic feet - 4 pairs of syllables in the unstressed/stressed order

Hope this helps a little

Does anyone here think that rhyme just comes naturally?? All this talk has me totally baffled to be honest...I never counted the meter on my poem until this came up...three lines that I could see were out by one beat...honestly, I did not want to change the lines but, as the member who started this thread I felt obliged to....

cascading colours and sweet perfume

^^

To be honest, Hellon, for some people, rhyme and meter comes fairly naturally anyway. If you weren't thinking of meter when you wrote your rondeau, you did a damn good job! I did see this line as off though. You have written the piece in fairly flawless iambic tetrameter but this line has 9 syllables, as supposed to 8, and that throws the rhythm. If you simply drop the 'and' you are right back on track.

'casCAding COlours, SWEET perFUME.

^^

Then the meter is perfect.

I would like to offer my own humble opinion on iambic pentameter

I feel it's a myth.

I studied this at college and felt the same then.
This whole idea was made up by a bunch of crazy poets to feed their ego's.
To make poetry more for the middle class Mozart loving sandle wearing beardies.
Its like those idiots who admire art in a gallery, amazed by the bold colour choice and sleek lines, only to be told they are admiring a fire extinguisher.

If myself and Hellon were to read the same poems with our regional accents we would stress different syllables, therefore one of us would be 'out' in the meter stakes.

this whole Rondeau challenge has turned into a mini sonnet challenge through the back door, I fell through it arse first.

bloody poetry.

Darren, you are a lost cause, lol.

Stick to what you enjoy and are best at - if I could write free verse like you, I would abandon meter and give up Mozart entirely...

That's why I am not writing one.

I mean, first of all, to attempt it is a difficult task.
Then, syllable counts and iambic pentametre...

Omg!

Hellon, I have no idea about the syllable counts or metre length, but I am pretty sure that 'in yonder meadow' is one of the best I have ever read on this site. Still, my 30 points goes to it.

Everlasting, you too wrote beautiful rondeaus.

Mother... Why? (Revised 2)
By Anthony Krieman

Mother why do you hurt me so?
Pain is all you have ever shown.
Bruises and scars, adorn my face-
The hurt I've found in your embrace.
Abuse from you is all I know.

It's true you reap that which you sow-
Alone, in silence filled with woe
In sadness you sit in disgrace
Mother why?

Solitude is colder than snow,
Frigid like my heart's Rondeau.
Distance has become commonplace
Till you no longer had a space
In my life when... I let you go
Mother why?

*Thank you Hellon, the lines should be even now. The stresses are not all the same but I think that's as close as I can get with this one

Excellent, Tony

Ben, yes this does help ... and the advice from all of you is something I'll be able to come back to look at when I need it.

I don't generally 'colour' within the lines in my life, but I do prefer 'neat' poetry ... funny eh? The poetry styles on PnQ are always so diverse ... there's something for everyone. I'm actually looking forward to the next challenge! :-)

I would just like to add....

The poems posted so far are excellent, whether they meet all the rules or not they read great to me.

I hope they don't get lost in this thread and that they get posted to your accounts.

Tony, yours is the stand out for me so far.

Thank you Mr Darcy for your input, and I will be looking again at my poem and work on it.

Some really great 'formed poetry on this spread, so well done with brilliant efforts to all, and thank you Hellon for starting a great thread :) Mx

Thanks Ben....I've changed that line. As Darren said, different accents can make a difference when we're trying to get the meter right.

Tony...I think your poem flows so much better now. I'm glad you pursued it...how did you feel when it all came together?

Darren....you cracked me up with your take on how pentameter came to pass....

Naaz...you can still give it a try...everyone is here to help.

Your revision is better than my suggestion Hellon. The 'and' is important there to stop it sounding forced and you've worked it in nicely with the use of 'cascading hues'

Thanks Ben.

Is everyone finished with form? Would you like another challenge?

Hi Hellon, I would say we are done with this form. I found it to be a good experience, not just trying out the form, but the shared learning. I am ready for lesson 2.
Maybe using a new thread, would be an idea?

Yes...I'll start a new thread....good thinking Batman haha!!

Hellon I'd like to congratulate you on a wonderful thread and well done to all who took as Hellon said you should all be proud.
Shows that when we get our heads together we're not much different to each other!! :)

I agree. I am proud of everyone who concerned themselves (rightly so) with meter and foot while I suck at it.