Burning The Flag Amendment? For Or Against?

WASHINGTON - A constitutional amendment to outlaw flag burning cleared the House Wednesday but faced an uphill battle in the Senate. An informal survey by The Associated Press suggested the measure doesn’t have enough Senate votes to pass.

source:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8318974

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I think if this bill would have become law, it would have trampled all over the freedom of expression/ and free speech.

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Then again I see burning a flag as a sign of disrespect to a nation and it's people. They drape this piece of cloth over a soldiers casket for Christ sake. It should stand for something.
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What do you think?
Discuss.

I'm against burning flags, but I'll defend everyone's right to do so.

I think everyone has a right to express their feelings and a right to form protest... However, I see flag burning as going a bit too far. I believe it's sick how the same people who live in this country and enjoy the rights and freedoms it offers are the same people who spit on the blood that kept it alive... I say God Bless America. Love it or leave it.

-- Maharani of Angels

I personally am not much of an American patriot, my loyalty lies with Europe, however I have a deep respect for soldiers on all sides of conflict. To burn the flag that is drapped over a soldiers casket is very disrespectful but it is apart of free speach so there is nothing America can do about it without denying their most sacred right.

Strictly speaking, burning a flag of any nature is not an act of free speech it is the destructioni of personal property.

There is no statement in setting something that you own on fire. Anyways, if the stars and stripes were so sacred why do I see them on beach balls, mugs, glasses, pins, bumper stickers and thongs ( a small selection of examples)?

I think it is more disrespectful to commercialise a national symbol in such a way than to burn it.

A flag is a standard and standards must be upheld.

I agree with bret

standards like free speech should be upheld

even if that free speech is stupid

like WildBoyz

I think we should have a huge flag bonfire, canada, cuba, USA, UK, Jamaica etc..... but not the jolly roger skull and cross bones, no they cant take that away from us

Pirates for president!!!

chatbox;
You see everything that isn't the way you think as a disgrace. Why don't you wise up and go back where you came from.

Ps when are you going to place a poem?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mr. Donald R. Minikus (donaldrminikus),
Troll Rank 4outof10 for his post.

I never mentioned the word disgrace in my op.

I respect the freedom of expression, and freedom of speech rights. I just think that some people take it too far, and go out of their way and try to insult a whole nation. "try"

Like I said, I rather have them burn the flag, than have the lawmakers take their freedom of expression away.

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Sir, I am 4 generations deep from The United States. Italian/ Spaniard: born and bred in Chicago. You mean go back to the hospital? Or my mothers womb? Please explain.
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Slick ol' man trying to start an argument. pfft.

Throws a pie at donaldrminikus. lol
nice try.

You never gave your opinion on the subject.

hey i'm all for burning american flags :)

Donald R Minikus

How about you shut up and grow up. You are obviously an ignorant person to say that to chatbot. "Go back where you came from"... That really shows how much higher you are than him.. right? WRONG It shows that you are a closed minded ass who has no personal respect for anyone.

I don't know about you, but unless you're a Native American, you're no better, because your ancestors came here the same way mine and chatbot's did. I am a second generation American - a German/Irish woman with obviously a Hell of a lot more American pride than you. It's sick how people throw out comments like that and don't ever think of how they affect people.

I love this country because of our freedom here. Look around to some other countries:

China- It is law that a woman can only have two children. It is a law enacted to control the massive population of the country. But men want to have a boy child. If a woman gives birth to two girls, often, she is divorced and likely never will get married again, because no man wants a woman who cannot give him a child.

Middle Eastern countries: In a lot of Islamic Middle Eastern countries, it is illegal for a man to walk with a woman of a higher class. The punishment? His sister is raped and dragged nude through the street. "Honor punishment" it's called.

Now if you look at that, and then look at America... Which do you think is better? We have it so easy here. We have jobs, technology, Democracy... We are not a starving, poor, disease-ridden country like much of Africa's nations... So how can you complain? How?

And for you to say something like that on this topic, then to boorishly bring up chatbot's lack of poetry or why he is here on this site is low. It has nothing to do with the matter. In my eyes, you are non but a fool. If you don't like it so much, why don't you take your own words and "go back where you came from"?

-- Maharani of Angels

Donald R Minikus

Though it's a shining example and a goal for Americans to meet.. you find so few that are actually willing to help another person. I had a lot of stuff happen to me in the last seven months. I moved out of my parents' house with my boyfriend and went to Delaware. Everything was fine - we had our own place, money, food... But then one day, he comes home from work all pissed off and takes it out on me. He put me in the hospital. I recovered quickly, only to find out he took all my things, cancelled the lease on the apartment and ran off with all the money. Left me broke and homeless. It was six months before I could go back home with my parents. Those six months, I worked, but lived on the street barely able to feed myself. It sucked. And do you think anyone ever thought to stop and help me? No. Not one person.

But on your comment about chatbot... Obviously, there is a flaw in how you see things... You are not a ninja - so there is no point in seeing beneath the underneath. You read too far into what people say and not into the blatant, stand-out meaning. As much as I respect, chatbot.. I don't take him for the type to use subliminal messaging in forum chat.

-- Maharani of Angels

Funny how mis-reading a post can provoke the most damning of replies.

I got it first time, Don. I've been away for a while but I'll give you a shout soon, mate.

Hahaha

I'm against the burning of the flag, also.

But...making a law against it...that's a little harsh.

hehe, Bret.

You said hoe.

lmao!! -immature giggle-

"Now is the task of trying to prevent that from ever happening again.' No matter who's friggin feet we step on."

^^^^
donald what is it thats makes you more important or valuable than anyone else whose "feet you step on" why should you have any "power" over them?

"how great this country is. "
^^^^
also Donald i remember asking you before what made "this" country ("this" being of course "your" country) so great. i can remember a poor answer, and no reponse to my comment

i even found the link to it

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=51117

author: Brian King
date:2006.06.05 15:06

and donald i'm still waiting as to what makes america the greatest country you said you know but haven't told us

author: donaldrminikus
date: 2006.06.05 15:47

answer
^The ability of its people to know* bullpoopsie when they see it. From both sides.

http://911myths.com/index.html

author: Brian King
date: 2006.06.06 13:48

everyone has the ability to see bull when they see/hear it. it's not like only america was blessed with some special gift

"Your motives for being on this site. this is A poetry site, yet I see no poems. Not even a quote. "

^^^^^^^^
s/he most likely created the current account (being named Chatbot) for CHAT use s/he probably has poems on another account. and even if i am wrong s/he has the freedom to do what s/he wants on this or anyother site. Who do you think you are, and what gives you any right to question Chatbot's motives?.... or does this have to do with "the Greatness" of america?

Wow.. I forgot to check on this thread...
.. delicate issue.

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Brian,
You are either very wise, or very logical.. or both.
I do have 2 accounts. This one for chatting, the other with my real name for poetry. (Registered :2003-08-28)

Some people do get pissed off because of peoples differences and go take it off on the poems. lol

Although with the recent events I deleted all my poems. (34 of them)
I might be posting them back up if the situation with Ken is resolved. Not that anyone care. I'm not popular with my other name.
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Mr. Minikus is not capable of offending me. I misunderstood his parables. lol
He is just being a smartypants, or just trying to stir stuff.
Not for one minute am I going to get offended by his remarks. That's all they are to me.. remarks.

But then again, even though those remarks weren't directed at anyone else. Others might take offense to them. I respect that too.
We are talking about freedoms, and rights on this very thread, and he tries to question mine. The irony. lol

I am definitely a he. :)

I totaly disagree with burning the flag, and I generaly dislike the people who do that. But I would never like to see this amendment go into place. First off, it is interfearing with free speach.

How did hitler take control, be regulating things like this and sense he could do that he grew and regulated more, The key was to do it slowly, in the name of patriolism.

Mr. Bush has already overstepped his bounds a few times, misusing excecutive power but I do not think he should try to push this amendment, it won't gain him any supporters and that is what it is all about.

Talanador

the Greatest land... no a great land yes

some comments on your ideas of greatness. i'll try to remain respectful

The best of health care, the best of education, the best housing conditions
^
provided you have the $$$$ plus many place have top quality medical care schools and housing, nothing makes america's better than others

You can even abort an unwanted child as well as for health reasons
^
interesting how you print "In god we trust" on your money yet you feel no responsiblity to do as he teachs. for good or bad.... abortion is still murder

With this great land is the incentive to create (invention) No other country has had more inventions for the betterment of mankind. From the simplest of hand tool to most powerful of rocket ship.
^
good point many sick inventions coming outta america. but you can't say nuclear warheads are for the betterment of mankind, they're for destruction and control.

This great land is the leader of peace in the world
^
THE leader... definately A leader but not THE leader i'm sure Iraq would agree with me

This great nation was the incentive to limit nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction.
^
great work in Iraq they could've really done some damage with all the stuff they had.

This great land is always the first to come to the aid of countries that can’t help themselves
^
yet you don't help yourself katrina/new orleans i won't go on

This great land as given its life blood in two world wars. This great country was the major player in freeing Europe from tyranny not only once but twice
^
so did the UK and Canada (WWI Vimy Ridge WWII D-day, Italian Campaign) and if i remember correctly you did do much fighting in europe in WWII i could be mistaken though

This great land freed all of Asia from the ravages of Japan
^
Only after they bombed you

Mao and his Chinese dogs.
^
saying his DOGS is disgusting i can't believe you would actually call another human being a dog. you disgust me

This great land sent the big red bear running with its butt between its legs from Cuba insuring the southern American countries would stay free to chose their own destinies.
^
SENT THEM RUNNING???? you simply surrounded them and asked them to stop stockpiling weapons and they agreed. you didn't send them running they left because they wanted peace rather than an all out war. you make it sound like you went up against a massive force and amazingly defeated them.
^
and i'm sure south america wouldn't choose their current "destiny" of being poor and underpaid working in workshops sent up and running by mainly american corporations

and pick up a thesarus you used "great land" like 13 times

interesting how you print "In god we trust" on your money yet you feel no responsiblity to do as he teachs. for good or bad.... abortion is still murder
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Brian,
Do you really think that they mean the Christian/Jewish God when they say "In God We Trust" on the dollar?

Read:
interesting how you print "In god we trust" on your money yet you feel no responsiblity to do as he teachs. for good or bad.... abortion is still murder

"Udjat - or all seeing eye. Also known as the god horus, the all seeing one eye god, one of few symbols referring to Lucifer (king of hell) also known as Osisis (horus grown up). Below the eye is a tear (used by many gang members as a tattoo below their eye) because he "mourns for those outside his influence." Horus (also known as the god Ra) was the Son of the goddess Isis.

Known as the "udjat" or "wedjet" by the Ancient Egyptians, the eye was the emblem of the falcon-headed Horus [Ancestor of Kings and Sky God] and Ra [the Sun God and chief deity of the Ennead, the Gods of Heliopolis]. As Atum-Ra in the Ennead he was the 'creator-god'. The udjat, symbolising the sun, was thought to protect the pharaoh [there is one at each corner of Tutankhamun's sarcophagus], and was used as an amulet against 'evil.'

so why print "in god we trust"?

so basically the all udjat stuff and all seeing all mourns for those YOU don't have control over?

"because he "mourns for those outside his influence"

^
???

how did I manage to miss this interesting thread. Chatbox, why didn't you mention the reason people were burning the American flag in your original posting instead of just stating people where burning the flag and it is a sign of disrespect. Flag burning has many different meanings, some of which are absolutely necessary.

Im against it, unless you are doing it to get rid of the flag because it is old. the proper way to dispose of a flag is to cut the stars from the stripes and then burn it. that is the only time it should be acceptable.

That's not the only proper way. Another is to fold it up properly and then lay it on a fire.

What gets me so much is the fact that everyone is making such a big deal over a piece of cloth for. It is a piece of motherf..king cloth that symbolizes america. What is America, America is not a piece of land or a bunch of abstract philosophical ideas and bullsh.t. It is the people who come together and believe in the same freedoms; the people who work hard to sustain those similar beliefs and protect them. You guys are angry because people are burning a piece of cloth that represents your country but won't wake the f..k up and realize you are america. The soldiers dying in Iraq are America. You all think America is this big idea that hovers over a body of land. That is crap. I would burn a billion flags if it brought to our government's attention the same stuff I just said. You all are sacrificing an emblem for the actual thing. Stop.

Oops, I did say hoe... what a typo!

I edited it.

Cory, there is only one reason I can think of when burning a flag is absolutely necessary:

You're naked, dying of hypothermia and need a fire to keep warm.

Burning a flag in protest is never absolutely necessary. How about a nice liitle protest sign or staging a sit down protest?

I take it back, burning a flag IS absolutely necessary when you need some airtime on CNN.

" It is a piece of motherf..king cloth that symbolizes america."

EXACTLY. it symbolizes America. meaning burning a symbol of America is burning America. that is why people are so intent on arguing about it. did you ever think of it that way Cory?

and Brett...

the dying of hypothermia thing was funny!

it does not symbolize anything people fly flags not to symbolize there country but to show where their from and that their proud of it.... and the hypothermia thing you would be better off snuggling with a person and wrapping yourself in the flag... it's a fact

Please read Brian's last post. That was possibly the most important thing anyone has said in this entire thread. The flag in this day and age has become nothing more than a commodity, somthing big business markets as lawn and car ornaments or other trinkets so they can sell them to so called patriotic people like you who think protecting a piece of fabric means you love your country. Then they turn around and laugh at all the people who bought them.

Bret, you misread my post. I never said it was necessary. Not once did I condone the flag burning. Now that you all have taken the time to stop, reread my last post, and realize you all jumped on it with wrongful accusations, listen to what I am saying. I was merely speaking of you people missing the big problems. I pointed out that the flag has been put on a pedestal over what America actually is: its people. I said I would burn a million flags to have the government realize what I am saying. In other words, I would sacrafice a piece of cloth for a human being. Yes, in a heart beat. If burning that flag meant soldiers could return home alive tomorrow I would burn as many flags as soldiers that needed to come home. If the rest of you would still like to put the American flag on a pedestal and not agree with me, then I'm sorry, it is that kind of ignorance that keeps our leaders blind to what America truly needs.

And Allanah, burning the symbol of something is not burning the actual thing. Who told you that?

nobody told me that... but you are burning a symbol for some reason.. and since you cant burn the actual thing, you can burn something symbolizing it as a symbol of burning the country.

you misread my statement cory.

no, I didn't you said exaclty Burning the symbol for America is burning America. It isn't the same. And you place too much emphasis on the flag. Everybody places so much emphasis on what the flag stands for that they actually miss what it stands for. Don't get caught up in seeing the veil. Pull the veil aside and look to what is behind it.

Well, iif you believe in something, you arent going to change what you believe for somebody else. what you call a "veil" is what i really see, so i dont need to "pull aside" anything.

What you see isn't wrong. But there is more to see. The flag is just a symbol made by and for the people. Sacrificing people for keeping the flag safe is ridiculous. A flag can't breathe, it doesn't bleed, or vote, or speak, or cry. I belive people have put the symbol so much at the forefront that they have forgotten about what the symbol represents.

now i see what you see... its what the symbol represents that matters. which is why i see burning a representation as metaphorically burning the thing it represents.

and if i ever said that you said what i said (whew) was wrong... im sorry, i didnt mean it that way. sacrificing people for a flag is wrong... NOW i see it as just a large piece of cloth for that purpose...

If you wish to fight to turn the flag into what it once was, a symbol made by and for the people, then in that ammendment someone should tack on a bill that states the flag can no longer be commodified. All teh trinkets and miniatures and such that are merely for money can no longer be made. Only that which is the full American Flag, whether it be a magnet or whatever it must be in complete unity the way it is meant to be hung from a pole, is allowed to be sold. If the ammendment brought the emphasis back to the people of America I could back it, but that wouldn;t happen because it is all about the money. Our president doesn;t know how to stand up to people who make a lot of money. He just lets them have their way cause he is their friend, and makes money off of them.

That's what I believe this ammendment would be doing. Without the bills about commodification, the ammendment would be placing the Flag on a higher pedestal than those it is made to represent. It is like saying, you can die for the flag, but for the flag to die for you is out of the question. That is ridiculous.

"All the trinkets and miniatures and such that are merely for money can no longer be made"

that i do NOT agree with. some people do not want a giant flag hanging outside their house. sometimes the "indoor" symbols (miniature flags and such) are what they want... they are a symbol (again with that word) of the real thing, and they want people to know that this is what they represent in a miniature form.

I mean the ones that are not actual flags, like the things people put on their lawns to spin when wind blows. The things that are made with stars and stripes, which happen to be blue, red and white, but look nothing like our actual flag. Miniatures of the acutal flag is fine, but something needs to be done about the commodification of our flag if this bill is to be passed. If it isn;t then our flag has only been reduced to gimmicks and another way to make money.

I would not back it otherwise. It would have to try and place more emphasis on resotoring the original meaning. You know at one time it was illegal to model something you were going to sell like the American flag. You couldn't sell a towel that had the stripes, stars and colors of the American flag if it wasn't actually the flag.

And I think you and I are the only ones who are going to continue this thread any. Most likely because we will reach mutual ground about the flag ammendment and then it won;t be worht speaking any more about. We already did reach mutual ground in the department of the flag as a symbol I believe. Now we are just arguing over technicalities of law.

ah, i see now. by the way, if you havent checked it yet, i commented on your "poem" about this same topic. you have a good viewpoint.

I saw, thankyou, I am in the midst of rewriting it as I type.

have you read this? its on the same subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration_amendment