Healing.....Feeble attempts or lack of knowledge?

I tend to agree with Bob on this one ..The saying "Life is what you make it" comes to mind.
It gets to a point where the author of poems of infliction become poems of self infliction to the point of distraction

John

agree with you sir!

Love is not confined to time or space it is infinite, and eternal like light
Love is essential in mental, emotional and spiritual healing yet anyone can except or reject it

I have heard and read simple analogies that claim that spirituality is an imaginary belief in a man in the sky that is annoyed by the imperfections of his creations and is out to destroy and punish all imperfections

There is no man in the sky and divinity would be totally useless if it were confined to the images we can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted
to a profoundly sick society." -KrishnaMurti-

I cannot think of anyone who can point out the ills of society better than Bob

I don’t believe any true poet would want to, or expect anyone else to adjust to the ills of society
I cannot say that I have not been influenced by someone else’s inspiration to the path to good that many call man-made religion
If we stray from a path can we blame the path?

I could not agree with you more that we as a society have been lead in unhealthy directions by the leaders of religion. I understand where you are coming from. We can find impurities, or human error in all religions. But there is good and evil and in the end the light will overpower the darkness hopefully

I hope that you do not see this as an attempt by me to change the topic
You see I believe there are sincere attempts by religious people and their leaders to reach their part in accepting a peace that we as individuals can reach by accepting the truth, whatever it may be

Finding or accepting peace is, as you say up to the man in the mirror

Serenity and peace of mind is very healing

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Mount of Olives is located on the east of Jerusalem, Israel. The mountain is named after the olive trees that used to cover its slopes. Mount Olives is holy to Jews, Christians and Muslims, and many religious traditions are tied to it.

The olive has long been a symbol for Peace

questions, questions and more questions, yet I'm sure there are no real answers qualified from the mere pittance of my mind...

..nor from my mind either
http://www.columbia.edu/~gm84/gibran23.html
Peace be with you

I think, that many of the paths that are in front of us right now, have been laid down to be strayed from, on purpose. Lost people are unfocussed people. Unfocussed people are easy to control, and we all know that those in power like to control things.

Linking this up with the topic, yes as an ideal everyone should be 100% responsibile for their actions, and like Bob said, at some point in your life you have to acknowledge the past, see what it has made you into and change if need be.

This sounds simple on paper, but in practice nothing could be more difficult. Who amongst you would say to a young women who'd been abused as a child that she should just get over her trust issues? Just let them go and stop being so hampered by her past? I certainly would never be so blunt and harsh and I wouldn't be so strong handed with myself either. Change, real change comes slowly...all that spiritual "Letting it go" crap is like cult tactics to reform peoples personalities to suti their needs.

Anyway, awesome topic...though I doubt it will change anything...

Ho ho ho...little topic focussed joke there for those of you who aren't british and have no irony.

‘
“I think, that many of the paths that are in front of us right now, have been laid down to be strayed from, on purpose. Lost people are unfocussed people. Unfocussed people are easy to control, and we all know that those in power like to control things”

I have at times broke with the traditional values of the church I was raised in to follow the path of Jesus of Nazareth. It seems at one point that one of His Disciples did not believe Jesus was focused on his mission and advised Him to avoid the path of suffering and dying for the sins of mankind. Jesus advised his disciple that his path should not be focused on worldly power

”Linking this up with the topic, yes as an ideal everyone should be 100% responsible for their actions, and like Bob said, at some point in your life you have to acknowledge the past, see what it has made you into and change if need be.”

I have observed the extreme behavior of the people that deal with their emotional pain by abusing themselves and everyone around them. The ones that are not focused on a path that leads to good become very focused on the detour I have heard the argument that substance abuse and other self abuse is a choice and not a disease
I believe everyone is 100% responsible for their choices. Healing is possible for those who have taken a detour which involves following the light of truth

“This sounds simple on paper, but in practice nothing could be more difficult. Who amongst you would say to a young women who'd been abused as a child that she should just get over her trust issues? Just let them go and stop being so hampered by her past? I certainly would never be so blunt and harsh and I wouldn't be so strong handed with myself either. Change, real change comes slowly...all that spiritual "Letting it go" crap is like cult tactics to reform peoples personalities to suit their needs.

Anyway, awesome topic...though I doubt it will change anything...”

Words like a path cannot change anything unless one accepts them

Micheal, as always, I have no idea what you are talking about. I can see the strong flow of religion in your words, but it's like I'm reading excerpts you've copied from kinda relavant religious articles to comment on my words.

Even though you haven't really commented on my words, not really. I really hope you aren't suggesting that only by following the "light of truth" can anyone be healed. Because the truth is s rare thing these days, especially from any religious or spiritual belief.

Sorry if this seems a little personal, I just never feel I'm communicating with a person when you answer like this, it all seems practised and fake, I can't imagine anyone actually speaking in the manner that you just responded to me.

“Micheal, as always, I have no idea what you are talking about. I can see the strong flow of religion in your words, but it's like I'm reading excerpts you've copied from kinda relavant religious articles to comment on my words.”

I am sorry if what I was talking about is over your head

"Even though you haven't really commented on my words, not really. I really hope you aren't suggesting that only by following the "light of truth" can anyone be healed. Because the truth is s rare thing these days, especially from any religious or spiritual belief".

If your focus is not on the "light of truth" it must be on the darkness of denial

Truth does seem to be rare these days. Maybe it as rare as the chemical balance that could heal

"Sorry if this seems a little personal, I just never feel I'm communicating with a person when you answer like this, it all seems practiced and fake,"

I have no desire to dictate to you what is real, and what is fake
If one practices a virtue such as faith it becomes reality

" I can't imagine anyone actually speaking in the manner that you just responded to me"
You are 100% responsible for your imagination

Topic focus; Healing.....Feeble attempts or lack of knowledge?

I have knowledge of truth, and I have knowledge of lies
I have not witnessed any healing of those that follow lies
I have however witnessed many failures due to feeble attempts to face the truth

From my understanding Bob Shank, you are basically saying that we have to assume responsibily for our actions rather than understanding it.

While it is true one should assume responsibility for the hurt and sadness they have caused. We shouldn't just toss away basic understanding and reason/logic out the window.

Emotion comes from our experiances and if someone was in an abusive family, a certain percentage of them will vent out in hurting another person's experiance.

What I am trying to say is that not everyone can blame as always themselves for their own action, that would make the world, a little less populated. But we should moderate towards the middle rather than go towards the left or the right.

If we follow only our human nature it is natural for a person that has been hurt to want to hurt the one that hurt them
To err is human to forgive divine

So basically when we separate ourselves from the divine we just pass our pain to someone else until it comes back to us. It becomes an endless cycle

There is a Buddhist chant that translates…......... Individual happiness equals world peace

You know, I think that being immersed constantly in the "light of truth" must after a while, blind you to many things, like being outside the the brilliance of the snow for too long.

I would not be the moderately advanced soul I am now where it not for my forays into my own personal darkness and the darkness of people I care about. Striving for an ideal, which I guess could be likened in a very loose sense to Micheals "Light" notion, is a grand thing, but not at the cost of ignorance of all else.

My focus therefor Micheal, is on whatever is around me, be that light or dark, even though i strive for enlightenment in most situations, I do go nocturnal sometimes and am all the better for it when I see that wee glimmer at the end of the tunnel.

As an interesting debate point. Have you never heard about Placebo healings of people who were lied to about their medication, and yet were healed of all symptoms? There you go, someone healed by lies.

But yeah....you are way over my head Micheal, I am not nearly as bright as you.

Little joke there at the end for those of you who are not British.

“You know, I think that being immersed constantly in the "light of truth" must after a while, blind you to many things, like being outside the the brilliance of the snow for too long.”

You know, that reminds me of a 1971 release by steppenwolf titled
‘SNOW BLIND FRIEND
Words and music by Hoyt Axton
”You say it was this morning when you last saw your good friend
Lyin' on the pavement with a misery on his brain
Stoned on some new potion he found upon the wall
Of some unholy bathroom in some ungodly hall
He only had a dollar to live on 'til next Monday
But he spent it on some comfort for his mind
Did you say you think he's blind?
Someone should call his parents, a sister or a brother
And they'll come to take him back home on a bus
But he'll always be a problem to his poor and puzzled mother
Yeah he'll always be another one of us
He said he wanted Heaven but prayin' was too slow
So he bought a one way ticket on an airline made of snow
Did you say you saw your good friend flyin' low?
Flyin' low
Dyin' slow”

It was about this time that I was hearing about a lot of performers that were dying slow
As many of my friends and even relatives would
I do not believe it was the 'light of truth' that killed them

”I would not be the moderately advanced soul I am now where it not for my forays into my own personal darkness and the darkness of people I care about. Striving for an ideal, which I guess could be likened in a very loose sense to Micheals "Light" notion, is a grand thing, but not at the cost of ignorance of all else”.
Amen

’My focus therefor Micheal, is on whatever is around me, be that light or dark, even though i strive for enlightenment in most situations, I do go nocturnal sometimes and am all the better for it when I see that wee glimmer at the end of the tunnel.”

Excellent point Kevin, like Bob said, at some point in your life you have to acknowledge the past, see what it has made you into and change if need be. If darkness becomes the dominating force in ones life, and one dwells on this negative force, which is void of light, this destructive attitude is unhealthy. The wise will seek the true light

”As an interesting debate point. Have you never heard about Placebo healings of people who were lied to about their medication, and yet were healed of all symptoms? There you go, someone healed by lies”

Placebo substances are widely employed by drug manufacturers to test the effectiveness of genuinely therapeutic medications If in truth the fake substances could have the same effect it would put the drug companies out of business.
Spiritually based therapies are apparently financed by the state I live in. I believe that this means there is a measure of success in correctional programs such as Theo-therapy N.A and AA.

Those that obey the rules by surrendering their will to a Higher Power have a 100% chance of recovery.
Don’t misquote me on this because obeying the laws is a choice. A smaller percentage will accept any attitude adjustment
I have heard the argument that self-harm is a choice and not a disease
My question is this is it a healthy mind that makes the decision to harm itself?

Michael – The point of the young woman with a history of abuse. R.D. Laing, the controversial psychiatrist, in a Channel 4 doc, works with such a woman. Using NLP techniques he reframes her focus of attention from the past to her now – which is all there ever is incidentally.
We all choose our path, whatever the deviations maybe.

Kevin - I would take you a step further and suggest that people are principally asleep, as Gurdjieff put forward in his work. That there are indeed many ‘I’s’, one for each minute of the day – unfocussed attention – yes this certainly means that the sheep can be herded by the dogs snapping at their heels.

Michael - I would question strongly as to whether faith is a virtue, in fact I believe this to be quite medieval in concept. No offence intended, but each to their own.
I personally worship no one or indeed, no thing. No being is going to tell me what to do in order to gain ‘enlightment’, or any other such state.
It’s up to me to open my own eyes to the imbalances around me and live my life in such a way that I counter balance the injustices as best I can.
Not suggesting for one minute that I get it right, far from it in fact, yes Bob is right, our actions are our own responsibility.

Noir – not sure that I understand your point, that’s exactly what has happened, reason and logic have been tossed out of the window, along with that other chestnut, common sense. Doh! Abuse is a choice!

Michael – To forgive is not a divine thing, it is human. Surely, what you really mean is that it is a perception. How you perceive the world and how I perceive it are two entirely different experiences. How can I, ever be separated from the divine? When a: there is no such thing, and b: I and everyone else, is divine.

Kevin – As always, you are spot on my friend. I am traversing such a dark space as you mention and I also have found that to experience the high and the low is far more rewarding in terms of growth than it would ever be if one aimed for the middle path all the time.
Can I also take the placebo effect a stage further, in that it is being acknowledged in healing circles, both allopathic and alternative; we ourselves are responsible for our health, therefore we create our illnesses and cure ourselves again. So whilst it’s true that we can be healed by lies we also make ourselves sick through lies.

Of course, one of the major problems is the creation of the western world and astounding ability to believe the hype. Mick Jagger once sang ‘a man comes on the radio telling me how white my shirts can be’, and amazingly, everyone believes that it’s reality. How scary is that, eh?

What is and who determines a healthy mind. I have known some very sane people who self harm, if you smoke you self harm...

Read, A Thousand Little Pieces - James Frey, if you think that twelve step is the answer to everything.
He chose his own path and succeeded.

Go well and in peace. Thank you Bob for a very interesting read, I look forward to more.

“Michael – The point of the young woman with a history of abuse. R.D. Laing, the controversial psychiatrist, in a Channel 4 doc, works with such a woman. Using NLP techniques he reframes her focus of attention from the past to her now – which is all there ever is incidentally.
We all choose our path, whatever the deviations maybe.”

I agree that we choose our path, or course. Those that are content with their path rarely seek the help of a psychiatrist. I have no problem with your post from an objective point of view. That is, a psychiatrist reframing the focus of attention, from the past to now. I can only assume that the psychiatrist is attempting to alter the future of the patient.

”Michael - I would question strongly as to whether faith is a virtue, in fact I believe this to be quite medieval in concept.”
If we look at faith in a general sense I believe it could be defined as a belief in anything
Belief in a lie is not a virtue thus I would have to agree that faith in a general sense is not a virtue,
although a theological virtue: one of the three spiritual graces faith, hope, and charity drawing the soul to God according to scholastic theology is

“No offence intended, but each to their own.
I personally worship no one or indeed, no thing. No being is going to tell me what to do in order to gain ‘enlightment’, or any other such state.”
That is interesting the act or means of enlightening : the state of being enlightened capitalized is a philosophic movement of the 18th century marked by a rejection of traditional social, religious, and political ideas and an emphasis on rationalism -- used with the....in Buddhism it is a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering,

“Michael – To forgive is not a divine thing, it is human. Surely, what you really mean is that it is a perception. How you perceive the world and how I perceive it are two entirely different experiences. How can I, ever be separated from the divine? When a: there is no such thing, and b: I and everyone else, is divine.”

I disagree that it is a natural human response to injury to forgive
The natural response to injury is anger, which is the human tendency which if acted out leads to violence and vengeance. We can accept or reject spiritual attitudes or teachings
We become what we believe in.

What is and who determines a healthy mind. I have known some very sane people who self harm, if you smoke you self harm"..
To some it is unhealthy to stay in the sun too long
Chemical balance seems to be an oxymoron, by today’s standard.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people including myself that rely on chemicals to get them through the day. But most do not see chemical dependency as a virtue. The God of my understanding loves us all just the way we are. The God of my understanding is the personification of love, life, light truth and all that is infinitely good. It is impossible for darkness to have light as a source.
The darkness or void does not progress, and is not effected by light. A body must have substance to reflect light.
"In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth." - Mahatma Gandhi

“Read, A Thousand Little Pieces - James Frey, if you think that twelve step is the answer to everything.
He chose his own path and succeeded.”

Good for him.

Personally I don’t think he should have admitted it was based on fiction

I agree with you Bob. You cant blame your past forever on the bad choices you make as an adult. Thats a cop out, and a lousy one to boot. Not only that, but it is pathetic. You have a choice once you reach adulthood, to continue being a victim, or to be a survivor, and as a survivor you have a responsibility to not intentionally harm someone else. If you chose to be a victim, then that is your choice, and the blame lies squarely upon your shoulders.

wow! so many things go through my mind listening to this discussion,I agree and disagree,we definately have to be responsible for our actions and there comes a time in a persons maturity when we can`t continue to wallow in self pity and we have to face accountability no matter what our past has been like, but then I think of the child whose only role model has been an abusive parent as he gets older what knowledge does he draw on to make decisions,aren`t we all a product of what we`ve learned through our life, like the plaque you see on walls they learn what they live, If they live with a irresponsible parent they learn to be irresponsible, maturity hopefully comes in time but not for all unfortunitly.

bump