George Floyd.

Chills indeed. Thank you for sharing this...

Here we are, a couple of loves for MA. too.

What happened to George Floyd was terrible and typical of the appalling racism that happens far too often in the US and racism where ever it is needs to stop. However and this doesnt diminsh the severity of the situation or the need for change (Im one hundred perscent against racism of any kind) I would also like to point out that in addition to racism there is also rife unacceptance of gays and other minorities who are also persecuted in the US and this has really come to a head and become more blatent since Trump came to power.

The UK policing is very different from the US. Our Police don't carry guns and are very much trained to talk to people and try and difuse situations. They are often referred to as community police for good reason. They are held to accountability for everything that they do so if heaven forbid they have a bad egg they are investigated to the enth degree. ( We have a special police commission that investigate any allegations of wrong doing). Our police force is very passive compared with the US police force they walk around on their beats quite friendly and approachable. They are used to talking people down rather than using violence. That is why it is terrible the abuse and injury that they have been recieving in London. It seems that people are watching the US news and imagining that the UK police are as bad. If they took the time to compare the two they would see that it is entirely different policing styles.

Growing up in the 60s was a time where racism in some parts of the country was rife, in others not at all as was the anti gays and persecution of disabled or mentally challenged. It was also a time when women were expected to get married and have kids and rely on thier husbands to earn the salary. I was told growing up that to do well in this world I would have to work ten times as hard as a man and it was true. I worked twice as hard for less pay and had to jump through hoops prove myself it seemed always one rule for the men another for a woman) Black people who I know were told growing up that they would have to work ten times as hard as the whites. I have heard horror stories where black kids were genuinely persecuted at school for the colour of their skin. Certainly bullying was rife at that time I was white and bullied quite seriously. Gay people were not really known much about as they kept a pretty low key.

In the 1990s things changed dramatically. Racism in the UK was no longer tolerated. Black people could raise a complaint about racism and a white was considered guilty until proven innocent. Black people had better access to housing often being pushed up to the top of the list as compensation I would imagine for maybe being overlooked previously but almost certainly in a lot of cases to ensure that there was no excuse for the organisers to be accused of racism. Companies had to employ a min percentage of black people or be considered racist.. It was a time of great change and for many they were scared that if they put a toe out of place that they would be accused of racism. So many would err on the side of caution not willing to take action against a black person where they would with a white person. So strict were the laws that people went over board to ensure that they were not racist (even people who had never been racist) because the power of the call against racism was so strong. If a black person called out racism it was considered very serious and a white was considered guilty until proven innocent. Eventually things settled down and it swiftly became the norm. Then came the public fight for the rights for gays and lesbions. It was revealed to the public (many of whom didnt know it was happening) about gay bashing and the cruelty that the gay and lesbian people had suffered. It took a while but they got thier rights through and quite rightly got the rights that they deserved to be able to marry and be accepted.

Women who had pushed for years for equality (despite having rights for years that were not being fulfilled) finally got the change in 2011 when there was a compusory order for a higher percent of women to be put into senior management roles. I finally witnessed women being put into senior roles that in some cases they should never have got simply because they were women. As someone who has fought all my life for equality in the work place it was a bitter sweet pill. It made me wonder if equality for equalities sake is actually justifiable when more deserving people are passed over simply because of thier gender. (Something to be discussed another time)

The problem is that in a world where people are brought up to think that people different from themselves are against them and are going to do them harm then they are always going to be on the look out for that danger. A child brought up believing that they are in danger from racism from a specific group of people will always believe that everyone in that group is out to get them and will subconsciously be on the look out for such racial behavior often believing that anything bad that happens to them fits into the racism bag. Be that whether your a white person believing the worst of the blacks or the blacks thinking the worst of the whites or a person of particular religion against another religion.

I have never been racist yet have experienced first hand what its like to feel racism because of the colour of my skin yet despite the racism of a minority there were people of their race who stepped in and stopped it. Just because some people are racist doesnt mean they all are. Racism isnt just about being prejudiced about black people its about prejudice and abuse of anyone who is different from ourselves.

The black life matters chant is a great tool for raising awareness of racism against blacks but people shouldnt forget that all racism is bad whether that be white people being racist to blacks or blacks being racist to whites or any other minority group. That it isnt just black people who have been racially abused there are other minority groups that have also been abused and still experience abuse. It is actually racist to accuse all police officers of racism or all whites as being racist because the truth is it is only a minority not everyone in the force and not everyone who is white.

Racism will never be completely erradicated while a single person is predjudiced against another be it for colour, gender or any other reason. Regardless of all the laws put in place we still continue to have criminals accross the globe committing crimes including murder so clearly laws will never be enough to stop racism completely. No matter what law are put in place there will always be racist people but they are in a minority. If parents brought their kids up to believe that everyone is equal and treat others as you expect to be treated yourself then this world would be a far better place.

Raising awareness of the issues and death of George Floyd are important but not at the expense of burning shops cars and violence. There are small groups out there who thrive on violence and meyham who are deliberately causing anti social behavior and trying to raise the levels of conflict and bad feelings accross cultures not to raise awareness of racism but to cause meham and harm. As someone who has white and black friends and family members of both I would just say raise awareness by legal means, petitions and raising money to pay for legal actions and if you have to do gatherings be sensible and aware that whilst your need might be genuine that you will be attracting people who have no interest in the cause but use it as a catalyst for violence and criminal activity there is no need for it and it is hurting innocent peoples businesses and lives.

Milly,

As someone who's lived in the US all their life, I think it's interesting to note any difference between police in different countries and areas of the world. If they truly hold themselves accountable and work FOR the community as opposed to protecting their own. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that. And I agree, to some extent, that in the time of Trump being president, more and more people have felt they can get away with their racist and xenophobic actions. There's less accountability, especially when Trump's administration adds toxicity and continues adding fuel to all of that. However, no matter who is president currently or who has been in the past, it's still everyone's responsibility to check themselves and better themselves. It's sad that many people won't even consider how their behavior affects people unless they're "called out".

A few of your points I disagree with and would like to talk about/debate, if that's cool with you:

1) "It is actually racist to accuse all police officers of racism or all whites as being racist because the truth is it is only a minority not everyone in the force and not everyone who is white."

- I think this is a very dangerous statement to make. It's bordering on apologetic and similar to the "they're not all bad apples, just a few" argument about police. I don't care if the individual police officer is a good person at heart, and strives to help people, they are ALL complicit in police violence and brutality. By joining the force, they are giving themselves authority and power, power that has been abused and seeks to undermine and target the marginalized. Chances are, you can't change a system from within, no matter how good your intentions are. That is why I believe police reform, though a great first step, won't make that much of a difference. I believe in disarming then eventually dismantling and abolishing the police, putting those funds into communities and relying on community leaders and each other instead of a team of people who often put the marginalized at an unfair advantage. One could say "well no one's perfect and at least they try" about ANYTHING, but that doesn't mean the system they are participating in wasn't designed to oppress. The system can't be fixed if it's doing what it was created to: uphold white supremacy. Just because George Floyd's killers are actually being charged, doesn't change the fact that tons of people still haven't found justice. There's a continued pattern of police, at the most, taking a leave of absence or maybe even being taken off the force, but not facing actual prison time. That's why we say all cops are bad cops.

I would strongly disagree that it's racist to say all white people are racist. That doesn't make sense. As white people, we have some level of privilege being born white. We benefit from police, from racism. We're protected for the most part. The point is not to demonize anyone, but to point out how denying we are racism is actually more harmful. The focus should be on not saying "I'm not racist" but being actively ANTI-racist.

2) "The black life matters chant is a great tool for raising awareness of racism against blacks but people shouldnt forget that all racism is bad whether that be white people being racist to blacks or blacks being racist to whites or any other minority group."

- This treads almost on to the "All lives matter" territory. Black people (and other minorities) technically cannot be racist to white people. Reverse racism cannot exist if you look at it from a study of racism as a system. Oppressed people do not have the power or authority to be racist to those who are not oppressed (white people). We as white people may face prejudice sure, but not racism. It's about power dynamics. White people often have more privileges in their life (their social or economic standing etc). Many people look at the most simple, dictionary definition of racism instead of delving further into the history of systemic and institutionalized racism. It's not about individual mistreatment but the history of oppression the Black community has faced and still deals with. As white people, we may have been shown prejudice in some way, yet we aren't affected to the extent, over literal centuries, that Black communities have been. Prejudice and racism are often used interchangeably and incorrectly. There's important differences in that prejudice usually covers feeling of dislike or contempt while racism is built on systematic oppression that extends and permeates to all aspects of life, all social structures, governments, etc.

Racism only exists on the basis of hierarchy, which, historically, has had white people at the top in positions of wealth and power. Technically, then, it must stand to reason that black people cannot be racist. They can discriminate but not be racist in the true sense of the word.
It follows that it isn't racist to say all white people are racist but it is discrimination to suggest that. In honesty, I believe the line is very fine as racism is the marginalization of certain people as is discrimination so I don't believe the difference is that great, MA.
Also, I still cannot help but feel that to say all cops ars bad cops is an uncomfortable turn of phrase and shows a level of discrimination in itself - it is isolating and generalising which is dangerous and is actually the very root of the wider issue.
Lots of police are black, rembember. They also deal with and solve a hell of a lot of other issues that have nothing to do with race whatsoever, eg, murder, rape burglaries etc. The point being, to look at the negatives concerning one aspec t of the police force isn't balancing the scales fairly. And as lovely as it would be to imagine a world where we could govern ourselves moderatly and safely, I believe that is wholly unrealistic. If history has taught us nothing, it has taught us that we - sadly - need to be monitored. I agree, though, that it needs doing in a more efficient anf fair way than it is at present.

MA, Responding to some of your comment..."I believe in disarming then eventually dismantling and abolishing the police, putting those funds into communities and relying on community leaders and each other instead of a team of people who often put the marginalized at an unfair advantage."

Reform is all well and good and reform is most certainly needed but if you want to get rid of the police entirely who would people call when someone breaks into their house or the little old lady is mugged or murdered? This solution would never work.

Regarding the comments around racism... Children are not born racist or biggoted and until we stop teaching our children not to be racist or biggoted then we are going to continue to suffer as a species. Bottom line is that we are all human and bigotry and racism is unacceptable at any level by anyone to anyone at anytime!

Glad we're having this discussion!

Ben - I completely see why governing ourselves is unrealistic at this time, and I know a lot of it is perhaps abstract or ideal thinking, but maybe at least getting the conversation going about what future police institutions can look like could be a start. The BLM movement is now calling to defund the police, so we can focus on reinvesting the money into communities, to the homeless, etc. A way of governing ourselves may at this moment not be doable, because a great deal of what we rely on is the police force. It would take time, and lots of education and thoughtful approaches, in order to shift power away from police and have community members issue mental health checks, evaluate domestic issues etc. I think while some police officers have training in mental health, it could be possibly better served by community volunteers taking courses on de-escalation and dealing with issues that require a great deal of care, understanding and de-stigmatization.

Milly - I'm glad you asked the question about what would people do when there are break-ins or murders. That's an important question. It's about more reliance on the community, not this black-and-white attitude that police are the ONLY option in that case. Many times, situations can escalate either by the police and their instinct to protect their own officers. In instances like mugging, reports could be filed to community members or maybe an educated council. There could be reinventions of the justice structure and community care networks and resources. Also, anti-crime designs, sexual assault centers that can protect survivors, mediation training, restoration practices instead of punishment that would work on dialogue with those who commit crimes and their reconciliation are just some more ideas.

I disagree with your sentiment that this solution would never work. It seems like it would be more feasible in the future, however far that may be... but shutting down any conversations about alternatives will never further the discussion.

And that's what I have an issue with, thinking that the police should be called for everything. That's where privilege comes in. You wonder why some people may not call the police for certain instances? Because they know they have a greater chance of facing police brutality. People of color are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police. Remember that.

I agree that, to an extent, the community itself could have more power to deal with certain issues. The problem is, MA, I feel a lot of what you suggest is to do with the aftermath of crimes committed and how that can best be dealt with. But who is going to stop a group of terrorists holding innocent people to ransom in a building? Who is going to bust drugs rings and pursue speeding motorists down the highway? I cannot help but feel the police will always be needed. There will always be murders, rapes, muggings, drug dealers, terrorists etc and no amount of talking or money invested in the community will stop that. "Normal" people are never going to be able - and nor should they even attempt - to stop those kinds of crimes. A high level of training and experience is needed for those kinds of situations - police.
It's sad that we can't look into the future and see a world where police are no longer needed and we moderate ourselves, but the issue is that we are animals - instinctive animals - who will never be able to rise too far above fighting over race, religion and territory. And as soon as you give an inch, there will always be someone ready to swoop, take advantage of this new utopia we dream about and grab that extra mile. Again, that's unfortunately natural and instinctive, but there will always be those few who want to rise to the top.
As above, I can absolutely see a way where police are no longer needed in such a broad spectrum of issues - in fact, where those issues would benefit more greatly without them - but I cannot help but feel that we will always need a police presence in some form or another, no matter how much we talk and educate. Some people just don't ever want to listen.
Anyway, what do I know? I'm older than you and a darn sight more cynical. The world needs young people like you with a positive attitude and vision for our future, MA

All the best

A gun ban will never happen in America, our very constitution was founded on the idea of overthrowing an oppressive government. Our first amendment guarantees free speech, and second amendment the right to keep and bear arms. The states can regulate and limit... but no one can abolish. An unarmed population is one that can be controlled (says the thinking of the founding fathers). We don’t have a gun problem, we have a culture problem. Guns have been readily available for 2 centuries but it’s only in the last thirty years or so that we have had mass shootings.

As for racism, yes it exists. I am all for peaceful protests. All citizens have the right to peaceful assembly. The moment that assembly turns into a riot or looting, they put themselves at the mercy of law enforcement that has a duty to put an end to violence. Unfortunately, they may or may not be equipped/trained to deal with riots. Police need training, and they need to not use any sort of profiling. Justice is supposed to be blind. The goal isn’t a world that doesn’t see differences, it’s a wold that accepts them.

To answer another question posed earlier, I own three firearms. A pistol that I carry to protect my family when we are out and about, a shotgun to protect my home and also to hunt, and an AR15. I have an AR because I firmly believe that I may one day need it. I live by the tenant of always be prepared. I would rather have guns and not need them, then one day need one and not have one.

When I was seven my mom’s former boyfriend broke into our apartment and attacked her with a knife. He was after his daughter, my half-sister, who he planned on kidnapping and fleeing the state with after he killed my mom. I took my 6month old sister and fled to a neighbor’s house. My mom barely survived and was fundamentally changed by the experience. I have often said my mother died that morning because the woman who came back was not my mother. I will not allow someone to harm my family, at home or anywhere else.

My pen has never written a poem without me. Guns don’t kill, people do. And just as anyone can pick up a pen and write any perverse thought they’ve ever had, so too can that person pick up a gun and act on their thoughts.

My pen has never written a poem without me

^^^

Love this Anthony and you should put it on your quotes list

To answer another question posed earlier, I own three firearms. A pistol that I carry to protect my family when we are out and about, a shotgun to protect my home and also to hunt, and an AR15. I have an AR because I firmly believe that I may one day need it. I live by the tenant of always be prepared. I would rather have guns and not need them, then one day need one and not have one.

I found this paragraph very disturbing .

It's sad that, in order to go on a family outing,( and that's just shopping, movies etc, ) you feel the need to be armed. What if you knew the guy next to you and the one next to him were unarmed became somewhere along the line someone was brave enough to stand up and say your constitution was outdated and America is no longer a Wild West country, would you feel safer then? Also, and I'm very naive about firearms so forgive my ignorance but, why to you carry a pistol when your out and about but change to a shotgun at home? You say both are to protect your family so I'm not sure why you switch? I have absolutely no idea what an AR is but it soulnd way scarier than the other two.

I wonder why no one is bringing up the fact that the only people rioting are police, out of staters and white neo nazis.

It's frustrating for sure. Some of the vandalism of local businesses in our city were done by two white people, caught on camera. Yet this led our city leaders to issue a new narrative of our civilians being violent, instead of the local and state police, and those even associated with the protests in general have been sought after by our prosecutor weeks after. It's very telling how people paint protesters, especially when the general public is more concerned with property damage over legitimate anger and actual Black lives. I don't think it's fair to police anyone's reactions, only for those to evaluate their intentions, and to make sure they align with the movement and it's not ultimately a distraction or excuse.

Black lives STILL matter. Even if there isn't news coverage anymore, even if there is justice for a few, there isn't justice for all yet.

And it does not matter if a person of color committed a crime or not, they do not deserve to face harassment, abuse of any kind, or any type of police brutality. I've seen it firsthand here in the Midwest that people suddenly supported the BLM movement, but did not do so in the past and even thought the movement to be violent or exaggerated, because the cases of police brutality were not as "clear cut". I have also heard the comments of "well that person deserved it if they questioned authority or fought back", and that is disgusting. Black lives should always matter, no matter what the person's past or if they fought back or not. It just shows how little respect there is for Black lives, and how people's intentions are revealed when they stay silent the majority of the time.