Darren...I'm Appalled...

My daughter has a huge imagination, she plays dolls with her sister, she is interested in bugs and plants, she paints, she draws, she writes.
She rarely watches TV and plays a lot of tennis, I work a million hours a week. So to snatch 15-20 mins together on this site a few times a week is IMO quality father daughter time sharing an interest.

Now, onto the 'bullshit' comments.
Do you have specific examples of comments I have given that are bullshit?

Are you implying that the Ravens Haven 2 is full of mediocre writers that enjoy scratching each others backs and feeding each others egos.

She is in the club, because there are some great people in there that I have gotten to know well. Most of these people avoid the threads because of debates such as these.

I would not consider even a simple comment from Karla as bullshit. even if she only puts 'great write, or stellar' this from her as one of the better poets on here is good enough IMO.

You love a debate and you never pull any punches Hellon. I value your opinion but it is your opinion not mine, my daughter wanted to join the site.

'I can if you want, though.'

^^
Lol

I do think Hellon raises some genuine points though. The material a child can be subjected to on here, the dangerous people that can come on here (weren't predators banned from here in the past?) and the general adult themes can make a place like this unsuitable for a child. Plus, I work with kids and also from my own experience from being a kid, 9 year olds, no matter how mature for their age, are still largely innocent/immature/prone to do immature things or be influenced. So I do see Hellon's concerns.

However, it isn't up for Hellon or anybody else to decide if somebody else's child should be a member. And these concerns can mainly be avoided witht eh correct supervision. I think Darren is going about it the right way and taking the right precautions so I respect his decision.

The whole play vs technology, outdoors vs indoors debate is going off on another tangent here I think.

Since Hellon has chosen to place curse words in her post... :-(

^^^

Enlighten me please?...crap..damn? what else? Oh...I get it...now that we have a 9 year old on board we have to watch our language before a cetain time.....problems already!!!!

I'm just stating a fact Hellon- You want to attack Darren on his parenting skills... ??? stating your appalled??? but yet you sling words in this post like a dog swings his water dish around... fine- Have fun making yourself look like a rude person...

It was a reaction Andrea...I was appalled and I still am that Darren allowed his 9 year old daughter to be part of this site....I'm not going to retract my statement....it wasn't intended to be rude....it was mearly a statement so....take it which ever way you please.

Enlighten me please?...crap..damn? what else? Oh...I get it...now that we have a 9 year old on board we have to watch our language before a cetain time.....problems already!!!!

^^^

My daughter as I have already stated will not look at the main discussion threads. So there aren't any problems, er crap dam and bullshit I recall.

I pick the poems she can read and comment on, so she will not see any with adult content, maybe when she is 16 I might let her read a sad poem, because she is my daughter she will never be allowed to read an explicit poem even when she is 30.

Outside playing is a whole different debate, times have changed, there are predators outside as well. Kids need to be supervised more these days than when I was her age.

She is the fittest kid in her school and tennis club (there are 100 kids in her tennis club) so this debate don't sit with her.

I am actually quite proud of her for wanting to write poetry and having the confidence as a 9yr old to let others read and comment her stuff even if in your opinion Hellon what she writes is shite. (whoops I cursed)

By all means should Darren encourage his daughter to pursue her dreams and excel at her hobbies. With enough help from P&Q community, the situation can be controlled. Should anyone see Abbie where she is not supposed to be or is posting something inappropriate, report to Darren. Many tasks in parenting are based on trial and error, even if one may not see it that way. This is new for both Darren and his daughter, I suppose. As far as criticism is concerned, I am sure both of them welcome light criticism, perhaps a guidance from multiple members could ultimately prove beneficial. Possibly widen her perspectives. Comprehending and interpreting an array of poems will be a good challenge. Of course the poems approved by her guardian/father.

And Hellon's concern is also valid, that a child must enjoy his/her childhood playing in the parks and such, spend time with family instead of being tied to virtual platforms. But at the same time, it is necessary that everyone familiarize themselves with technology, the sooner the better. Living life without technology is going to be inevitable, and very soon.

I honestly can't believe this is a real thread here. Seriously, Darren you dont have to keep explaining yourself.

Hellon will you please slow down and read what people write to you? Darren stated multiple times that she is heavily supervised, very limited on time here, and its something for the two of them to do together. She plays tennis for hours... As a tennis player I can assure you after practice or a match, you don't want to come home and run around all day. People can be allowed time to rest, and yes, 15 minutes a day on a comp with her father is acceptable. Darren has repeated himself God knows how many times and you still throw wild accusations around. Freakin relax.

When I was 9, because I had a crappy mom, I got on chat sites and this thing called the Palace where you wear avatars and chat to people. I would have men message me sexual explicit things and I would laugh, because I was 9 and immature beyond my age. My parents didn't monitor a thing. So to see Darren being involved as a parent is good. Teaching her internet security and doing this the way he is good. It's not like she has free reign for crying out loud.

"Seriously, Darren you dont have to keep explaining yourself."

^ Yessss, true.... She is your daughter, and you are her father. And no one would be afraid or care for her more than you. wooofff

Unlikely. He should state explanation. P&Q community will be held responsible for, whether Abbie gets treated well or ill. And in finality, Darren could also be criticized for his parenting skills.

One chooses to support Darren because he/she has sentiments of friendship towards him. Should we have stumbled upon a profile of an 8-9 year old, such an issue would have arisen.

And he did explain himself and the situation, the measures he is taking to monitor her activities. It was the right thing to do. He is taking the responsibility.

No use howling at Hellon in a pack. Crappier threads have consumed the forums. This one was valid.

Yes, explaining once makes sense.. but in every post he is reexplaining everything he's already said because people don't take the time to read.

Darren and I, I don't believe, have never really talked before. So my support is because he seems like a good father and is going about it in the proper way, in my opinion, not because were friends.

I have seen 9 year olds on here before and honestly I ignore them.. I don't want to be involved that way.. unless I see something bad happening.

^ Yes. I did mention that he has explained himself. He repeatedly is.

Hellon is not satisfied. And she asked for a public explanation to her satisfaction. Or wants an input from the whole community.

While a member can choose to ignore a profile of an 8-9 old. A mod must investigate it, for the sake of moral obligations.

"One chooses to support Darren because he/she has sentiments of friendship towards him."

^ Gaurav, I (alongside several people above) am not a friend of Darren. So, this doesn't apply to me. I just felt that he is her father, and people shouldn't interfere in the business between parents and their children.

How can I get the picture closer?

I am sure if someone has children, he/she wouldn't like to listen to his mother, neighbor, friend, relative, etc... telling him how to raise his/her own son/daughter!!!!

That is the whole case.

-

And what I cannot understand is this 'age fuss'?

Maaaaaaany members do not show their real age.
So, Hellon, for example, should not be allowed to read explicit poems because she is 1 year old.

I can now state that I am 32 years old with everyone believing me....

So, I am saying this age discussion is totally useless and invalid.

^ I was speaking in general Abed, and as an observer.

It is revealed that Darrens daughter is a member on the site. And it is appropriate to question, in PM or public. Only because of moral obligations.

Age is not a problem, at least to me. While his daughter is developing a sense of morality and maturity. She may as well develop a mentality to adjust to an online community. I am not against anyone joining the site. A substantial amount of parents choose to ignore their children, while Darren has chosen to support his. In finality, no one is too concerned to ruin their sleep over such an issue, because it is out of ones hands.

A group of people teaming up to attack one, is pretty common here. This thread was valid and I am merely defending it.

Edited
LOl no one will be held responsible for anything,
Darren, I don't even know why would you feel guilty or think that you should explain yourself. O.o. i have seen members who think and act like they are 4 years old.

Age doesn't really make a difference, when we are talking about a 9 years old, smart girl whose father is keeping an eye on.

You should give her this confidence in herself, infact. And rather than keeping her away and hiding her and preventing her from showing what she've got, warn her about what's out there, let her know the do and donts through guiding her.

I don't see why would we expect soemone to explain himself, when doing something that personal and something that concerns him only. IF you are so afraid and worried about the girl, just save it, in my opinion, no body will worry about someone's child more than his/her parents.

And you don't even have to keep an eye on every single letter she types, too much restriction is really bad.

Hats off for you, not all parents care about their children that way, you are educating your girl ! this will help her learn more, gain writing skills, ummm communicate with people, "you already know" it will strengthen your relation, and ALSO will really take her thinking levels into a higher place.

you're a great father, especially for offering a lot of your time for your own kids and family, we don't see that anymore, wwell...not so often ^__^

The reason he should explain himself is because if his daughter is ill treated, else any of her activities spring inappropriate, he too will be criticized. People turn against one another quick enough. It is a good precaution and an assurance of his participation. And to add another reason, he is a decent contributor to the site and it is nice to have a common ground of understanding before things turn ugly. And members have come to care for him or at the least have befriended him, which is why such a thread exists.

May be an age limit should be set.

So some of you want to convince yourselves that there are no young members ill treated O.o
just because she's his daughter.

No Darren is a "big boy" O.o I guess and he can be responsible for the desicions he takes or makes. No body should criticize him, this is pointless, he is keeping an eye! nothing "Bad" is going to happen to her, she won't see a ghost, and no one is going to do bad things infront of her. Seriously, Darren can hold the consequences of what he does.

Give him a break (: just because someone is nice active and people like him doesn't mean he should be questioned about the personal things he do. Yes it is peronal

As always you see, but do not observe. This cannot continue. Reply not to what I write, but to the over all give away.

I will explain it one last time.

It is personal no doubt, but its a thread already. I did not start the thread and am not personally engaging Darren. Since the thread is already up, an explanation is a good thing. It eliminates further feuds. We do not know who the youngster below 10 or 11 are, but we do know that one particular profile is his daughters. And should any of her activities come off as inappropriate, he will be facing consequences, good or bad. It is human nature to cause drama.

I am defending Darren, Hellon and the thread. I am trying to suppress and minimize future problems on this topic, so we could pass on to better threads.

I too agree she is too young

but if she's under her father's supervision
what harm could it do..

if you won't trust her own father to protect her,
who else will.

the earlier she learns and starts
exploring and expanding her talents the better it will be for her in the long run.

besides, if she wants to become a poet.
its good she starts learning to take criticism, imagine by the time she is 13 she'll have such tough skin

the kid will be untouchable and unstoppable...

Yes, we could set an age limit but how hard is it to lie about your age on the internet? That's pointless.

Once more Hellon, do we really need a thread about something you could quite easily say to Darren in a private PM?

Also, it is none of your business.

Also, from the looks of it Darren's daughter has more maturity than many members twice her age.

Gotta be honest, getting a bit sick of you making threads out of things that should be PM's.

I think it is right to address your concerns publicly.
last time I checked we were living in democracy !!
but I do not think the title of thread should include a name. it is too personal and that makes people to think you chould have done it via pm
but the issue whether right or wrong, itself, concerns every one.

We have no special responsbility for Darren's daughter any more than we do any other website user. We have a duty to follow the website's rules and that is it.

Darren seems to have the rest covered and I think quite a few of you need to understand the lines in the sand on this issue.

Ok, It is said I don't need to explain myself but I feel I should for the last time on this subject.

Here are the details of the 20mins myself and my daughter spent on here earlier.

I logged into her account and checked the PMs, she had 1 from a member that I know and has already commented on her poem, welcoming her to pnq. I then checked her reviews of her poems, all were ok for her eyes.
Then I called her down and we sat and read through some of her poetry she had written herself over the last few days in her bedroom in a notebook.
I explained a haiku to her and we read together a haiku written by Lostlove1 and I asked her what she thought, she left a comment which she typed herself.
Then we read a senryu by Mandy, again she typed her own comment. Finally read a poem by wildflowe, again she commented herself.
(I had already pre selected these three poems as suitable for her eyes.)
We then broke down her 'snake' poem and turned it into a haiku. Yes it isn't great but she learned about syllable count and the origins of a haiku. I can bet that she is the only child in her school to know what a haiku is.
After that we read her comments that she had recieved. (remember I had already checked these.)
Finally I logged into the ravens and showed her the 'welcome abbie' thread. (again I had already read this)
I allowed her to type a thank you message.
Then we logged out.

At no time she was on her own, she didn't read anything that I hadn't proof read.

To me there is no issue, my parents let me play outside from 8 o clock and told me to be back for tea. they didn't want me playing around indoors and didn't spend any time with me.

As I have said, this is the last thing I will say on this.

I think it's great that she's taking such an interest in poetry, Darren. By the time she's 14 and all of her friends are writing angsty poems, she'll be on Expert Level! I also think it's great that this is something you can do together. Fun, educational parent involvement is sooo important - and more rare than it should be. You taking the time to sit with her one-on-one connects extra positive feelings with learning and writing.

I would be concerned if someone just let their nine-year-old roam free on the internet, but that's far from what's happening here. It sounds like a controlled environment. Plus, it's not as though this small amount of internet time is ensuring that she doesn't "go outside and play." You can do both, and it sounds like she does.

There are different ways to learn anything, and this sounds like a good introduction to poetry, as well as to the computer skills she'll be needing soon. I commend you for being such a present and thoughtful father.

I guess that means you got 3 mod stamps of approval. Even if you hadn't - you're the dad. You get to decide.

Thanks for presenting your case so maturely throughout.

I too think it is up to the parents discretion.
I am glad we reason as you did and " that is it " time is over!

Damn. Darren's Abby already writes better than this old Abby.

Who are we to tell someone how to rear his/her children?

I concur with everyone that stated this could have easily been a private message...no need to call anyone out.

Although, I too, agree she is too young to be a part of a site such as this, it has become obvious that she is closely supervised.

^"Damn. Darren's Abby already writes better than this old Abby."

Dear Abby,
Unless you have a twin named Ann Landers, no one will ever top you in my book.

Interesting, you sure can find funny posts on here. Although it doesn`t really make much sense why would anyone bother to talk about how somebody else spends their time with he`s kid. Sure maybe you could have talked about age restrictions, but that is already said there really isn`t any (not to mention you apparently are 1, which means she would OFFICIALLY be 8 years older than you and who knows and maybe I`m lying on my age and I am only 7 and a half). I don`t see much point to bitch about that kid, she has done nothing wrong here and Darren explain why she is on here and that she is under supervision and that it helps her to raise writing potential.

On side note

"I see she's in your club too ..that makes it even worse for she will never know the truth even you don't know that because your club members feed you bullshit and you return the same bullshit comments back..."

Judging our club like that is quite interesting too. I guess as "bullshit" you mean that sometimes we just simply say things "great work" or that some1 liked this and that, do you really think that is so horrible? Sure some critic would help improve, but I don`t see anything wrong with saying that you enjoyed reading someones work. Doesn`t hurt to get praised sometimes, even if it necessarily doesn`t improve our work it still is nice to see that someone enjoy what you write. Also there is plenty of detailed comments too which is both nice and helps improve, hell, take same Darren for example, always giving great feedback and doing it in good manner.

You know, whatever, somebody will always think that he/she is superior and that hes/shes opinion is the right one. I just say, keep on the good job Darren, I`m sure it will do good for her by staying on this site and don`t stress much about whatever anyone else says, I`m sure you know how to treat your kid better than anyone else here could even imagine.

^ Not to skip over Janis's opinion above, but I really thought it was Janis, the site owner speaking :P

Haaa, thanks Larry, I think.

Hellon said:

"that makes it even worse for she will never know the truth even you don't know that because your club members feed you bullshit and you return the same bullshit comments back..."

Our club is a fellowship of poets. We support each other, we encourage our members, we understand that we have to feed people so that they can develop as good poets. Poetry is not inspiration, it is discipline. The more you dedicate yourself to it, the more you tend to write better.
I am sure Hellon that when you wrote that comment you had forgoten that we have great writers in our club like Ingrid, Lostlove 1, Mandy, Peter Edwards, Kate, Amreen, Lostwords, AT, Lillie and so many others.I am sure you didn't want us to feel inferior and humiliated and I am sure that the proposal of PnQ is not fostering misunderstandings among the members but promoting beauty and inspiration to those who come here to read our pieces.Thank you for your attention.

No Karla...I never meant anything like that at all....I was just saying that being sheltered by a club....regardless of the age issue is not always a good thing. People tend to comment on their own club members poems rather than others....it's natural to do so but it's not something I would condone personally. Then they branch out and comment on the poems of their friends again...something I'm not keen on....the horizon of P&Q is much larger than that but....anyway...I have spoken to Darren by pm regarding all of this and...although I haven't changed my mind about his daughter being too young....he now has a clearer vision of why I got so heated in this thread last night so...enough said.

I do understand your concern Hellon but since Darren agreed to the permanence of Abby here, I feel we have nothing else to say.He knows the dangers she might be exposed, my friend and he committed himself to keep an eye on her.

OK SO IF I MAY SOAY SO MYSELF, AS A RAVEN!

Our club is full of FANTASTIC people, ok? And how dare you say anything about a club you know NOTHING about? That's like me judging you for a church you go to, or a store or anything. I LOVE my Ravens, as they love everyone in our club. We keep it safe, simple. We, TOGETHER, are a tightly knit group of amazing poets and people. So, on that topic. I am done! It's ridiculous.... We are no MEDIOCRE bunch ok? So dont say shit about the club...

ABOUT THE COMMENTS, you know, maybe they do leave a comment saying "spectacular" or something else short and simple. THEY STILL TOOK THE TIME TO READ IT AND ACTUALLY LEAVE A FREAKING COMMENT! And personally, keep those opinions to yourself because you shouldnt be worrying about what other people do, worry about your own self.

Same thing with Darren letting his daughter on the site. IT WAS HIS DECISION, IT STILL IS HIS DECISION AND YOU CANT DO SHIT ABOUT IT! Sometimes it is better to keep your opinions and mouth to yourself. Because some things tend to piss people off.

When it comes to you leaving a comment on her poem, sometimes criticizing can be a good thing. HELL, READ MY POEMS AND SAY AS MUCH BAD SHIT ABOUT IT AS YOU WANT! I am proud of my writing, and for someone HER AGE, with TALENT like that, I am sure both her and her father are proud of it.
Now when it comes to criticizing, she hasnt had as many years of experience as you have, so keep that in mind. If you would really rip the heart out of a less-than-a-perfect-poet child [ABBIE, NOT SAYING YOUR WORK ISNT GOOD, I LOVE IT SWEETIE] then you are a cold-hearted person and you should probably go see a therapist.

WHEN IT COMES TO PERSONAL ATTACKS, I think it is BEYOND ridiculous that you would say something like that. TO BOTH DARREN AND CHELSEY [sorry if I spelled your name wrong hun]!
CHELSEY: ok... what you said to her was probably the rudest thing I have EVER read in my freaking life. WHO THE HELL SAYS THAT TO SOMEONE?! Maybe you're just bitter, who knows, but you NEVER say anything like that to ANYONE!
DARREN: To be honest, I find this inspiring and heart warming. He is helping his daughter bloom by allowing her to spread her wings with poetry. He is fueling a talent she has, and for someone her age, she is beyond skilled! I see her going far with this in the future. He is helping her find a side of herself WHILE protecting her. It is a beautiful thing.
AND
He and his child are BONDING when he is teaching her new things, letting her see things from a different perspective. He gets to watch his daughter grow in time and a LOT of father's dont, a lot of parents dont. My father wasnt around to bond with me, and when he was, we never talked. I YEARNED FOR THIS AND NOW A BEAUTIFUL LITTLE GIRL GETS TO SPEND TIME WITH HER FATHER, DOING THE THINGS THEY LOVE!

Phew....that was long....hope you managed to suck up a few breaths in between?

Ha.... ha. -.- I dont think you know just how funny you are.

You insult someone, I get mad. When you insult someone I care about, I get super mad. Insulting the entire club AND everyone who disagrees with you here, it's a new mad level I didnt know I had in me.

I think this thread needs to be closed!
It's messed up to be attacking other members with harsh words especially in the way this went about. Yes an opinion is just an opinion, but to outright disrespect someone like this is wrong.

I think it's cool to see people backing Darren up. It is his child and I think it's great that he is allowing her to share her poetry with us and I have total respect for him in that choice. I think the world needs more children that take interest in artistic outlets. Most kids now sit around playing Xbox or on their iPhone/iPad and waste there time rotting their brains out. The younger generations are losing respect for art and it's extremely sad.

As a community we can comment and even criticize her poetry in gentle ways to help her grow as a poet. That's how it should be, there's no age limit on creativity.

Alright, here I am. I read everything.

Hellon, I want to address your comment to Chelsey. To mock someone's sad poetry is inappropriate and enters the forbidden realms of our #1 rule on PnQ. Usually you are able to express your contrary opinions in a decent manner, so I'm not sure where the cruelty came from here?
Posting your personal, sad poetry to PnQ is placing a huge amount of trust in fellow members... it takes courage and a desire to share with a community that could potentially use your vulnerability against you.
Why trample on that trust? There's no point to it except meanness.
I don't consider you to be a mean person, Hellon, so this felt out of character and disappointing...

As for this thread's topic - two things: First, it should've been taken to PM. Darren's parenting is his business, no one else's, and unless he gives express permission, it's not right to make it into a public debate.
However, he did give permission, even if it was after the fact. For this reason alone, this thread has been left alone.
Second, since you made this topic into a public debate, I don't understand why you are quick to snap your jaws at those who disagree with your opinions. It seems you initially raised a valid concern, but after Darren was able to refute every single point you made (he really has!), instead of conceding, you've stuck to your moralistic view without much ground to stand on... That's your choice though. You can continue to disagree with his parenting strategies. Nevertheless, the mods have given their seal of approval. What more can be addressed?

On a different (yet related) note, everyone on PnQ reading this, please refer to this thread as soon as you have 5 minutes to spare:
http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=130009
^ It is important that you all are well versed in our rules, because a handful of you are slipping up too much lately for the moderators to turn a blind eye.