Front Page Poems - Judging Process

Any suggestions regarding the weekly? The results will be posted soon. The number of poems is shy because we only have 2 judges.

So if you have a suggestion to make which would encourage more people to judge the weekly please share your ideas.

We cannot apply changes to the system, I mean to how the site chooses poems if we were to let go of the current judging process, so please try share applicable ideas if you have anything on mind.

Perhaps in regard of restrictions and criteria and/or rules ?

Suggestions | Please vote on the below proposals/with or against:

1- Judging---but in public, no anonymous status ?

2- Votes without comments ?

3- A random generator for all nominated poems (needs Janis)

4, A: Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone on their personal accounts, poems with highest points go to the front page. We make weekly comments and analysis of winning poems.

Or

4, B:- Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone ( Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges) [needs Janis - number of votes per account is limited to 3 votes)

5- The system picks the winners each week for the front page and if possible the HMs (the old system)

6- A barter system?- If you publish more than one poem in a week then you should be prepared to step up and judge for the following week to give something back to the community.

7 - We stop having the competition

8 - Continue with the present regime but have a new badge for the Judges - (received at end of each term) the more judging terms you do the more points you get (needs Janis)

9- 1. Reserve 1 win for lesser-known poets to bring site-wide attention to them :) Can have either a judge/mod solely for scouting for new people.

10- Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site.

I've offered in the past and I will do so again...I will judge..not anonymously...I don't mind being upfront with my picks.

EDIT

and...I will do this week if you want :)

^Personally, I currently like any suggestion that would help out with the front page process.

But we need to know what others think?

Stuff it....I can put my thoughts/votes up here for free right..right now I mean????

You can do that, as an experiment (won't be added to the current results), but we can see what the other members think about publicly voting.

Ok...these would have been my picks this week...

A Perfect World (rd) by Milo (10 points)
Needed Eggs by Aegis (7 points)
The Only Thing we Are by Bob Gallo (4 points)

And not a single bloody point for my sonnet? I cannot believe it, especially as I know how much you love the form. Outrageous...

do you stick to your original proposal ? As in judges being allowed not to leave comments ? So that I add it to the suggestions above.

I was struggling with comments for a while Nana...I could possibly add something now if required????

Ben...I honestly did consider your sonnet and Mr.Darcy's and there was one other but....nothing to do with me not liking sonnets the others just appealed more on another level and...I do know you were being humorous here...well I think you were.

No, no need right now, just wanted to know if I should add it to the suggestions and see if others are also fine with that for future!

Yes, I should make absolutely clear I wrote that in jest!

I've been a member for years but I've never been a judge. The main reason being that I barely even log on to post my own poetry. Sometimes I go weeks or even months without getting online. And even when I win or get an HM, I'm not always around to see the threads about it. I definitely think there's a little bit of responsibility of being a judge. There's some weight to it that I think some people don't want. Myself included some days. But honestly, I just don't feel like I have the time or effort to put into reading and critiquing others' work. Hell, I can barely do it for my own. Some days I almost wonder if a random generator for all nominated poems would be better? Idk. Just some ramblings from a overthinker.

It seems the issue is that people either genuinely don't have the time or find it intimidating to have to commit to a month or two months worth of judging or having the time or ability it takes to write the critiques. Being a poet isn't just about writing poems its about reading poetry too and critiquing poems other than your own is a great way to improve poetry skills.

The easiest option would be to let the system randomly pick the winners but that doesn't allow for HMs. and I think that the HM's are just as important if not more so than the wins for morale.

So what about making a couple of changes to the way that the competition is judged for say a couple of weeks or a month just to see how it plays out. Then review it after to see what people think?

Option 1
1. Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone - that allows everyone to judge their favourite poems for the week (either include the need for comments or not though bear in mind that it one of the nice things about the competition ) Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges. (people cant vote for their own poems or any they have nominated themselves). This would allow everyone to vote as and when they have time possibly on a week by week basis without committing whole months at a time

Option 2
The system picks the winners each week for the front page and if possible the HMs

Option 3
A barter system?- If you publish more than one poem in a week then you should be prepared to step up and judge for the following week to give something back to the community. (this might also help reduce the poetry bombing that happens from time to time) (If you have time to publish several poems a week then you have time to judge in theory at least) (A term could be a week, month, two or three month)

Option 4
We stop having the competition (but I think that will kill the site because for many that is one of the nice things about the site)

Option 5
Continue with the present regime but have a new badge for the Judges - (received at end of each term) the more judging terms you do the more points you get which brings you recognition as being a team player and a person who gives back to the community. It also helps raises respect for judges and highlights perhaps those not pulling their weight so much?

Milly, i like all those options. Maybe we could try to keep the personal judges for the HMs, and try to keep it generated for the actual wins each week? That way we have a chance for new or older users to get highlighted for a week, but we also get to give notice to new or existing users for their current work. I think that'd possibly be slightly more useful than the current situation due to personal bias or opinions or friendships, etc. That's all I have on the notion for now.

Thank you both, added your suggestions.

I think all options are good, some of them ain't applicable because the Admin isn't around, as for the others, I think any diversity would be a good experiment at the meantime.

However, I am not on the same page with you regarding forcing someone who posts more than one poem a week to pay back for the community, there are many users like Aegis who just don't have the time or proper environment that allows them to be involved, it's their right. However, for my part I like the rest of suggestions.

A couple of question about option 1

1. Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone - that allows everyone to judge their favourite poems for the week (either include the need for comments or not though bear in mind that it one of the nice things about the competition ) Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges. (people cant vote for their own poems or any they have nominated themselves). This would allow everyone to vote as and when they have time possibly on a week by week basis without committing whole months at a time

When you say 'everyone' do you mean just that, everyone? Newbies and oldies...everyone???

Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges

^^^

I'm not sure what you mean exactly...can you clarify?

The Mod Account deals about 70% with the contest & 30% with Admin issues.
I suspect she means the Mods create an account that will deal only with the contest.
Two ways it might be done:
1 The password is shared to all members. The account is set to judge status & come Saturday (PNQ time) first come first serve on voting. (I think whoever gets there first is likely to hit all three votes).

2 Members PM their votes to this account. Only the Mods have password access. On Saturday the PMs are processed and the mod in contest duty that week votes per the results.

Regarding opening up the weekly, if the voting does occur through one and only one account, there still is the issue of HM badges. There'd be a spike in HMs being handed out (not that I have an issue with it), but it's something that needs to be accounted for. I think having it, as opt-in makes sense for now, mods can keep track of who has joined to vote (whether they vote or not is a different story), and perhaps set up a google form and mail it out to everyone for comments so they can leave comments, and it might be easier to compile comments that way.

Orrr alternatively, you can just have encourage everyone to post those comments directly on the poems itself :)

Throwing in another couple of options:

1. Reserve 1 win for lesser-known poets to bring site-wide attention to them :) Can have either a judge/mod solely for scouting for new people.
2. Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site.

These are interesting suggestions, Mark.

One thing. Not every solution requires Janis.

The idea of establishing a voting account intrigues me. Realize that any single account is limited to the same 3 votes as any other judge (one each: 10, 7 & 4). Thus such an account might work best to augment the volunteer judges, not replace them.

That single account could be used in the ways you describe or otherwise:
1) dedicated to newbies worthy of the front page
2) reflect a popular vote per PMs to that account.
3) give true recognition to a site wide contest winner
4) or ... (insert suggestions here)

I’m all for letting the “computer” (for lack of a better term) choose the winners at least for 3 months.

That way, either those who aren’t satisfied with how the contest is working at the moment may start appreciating the effort the judges put every week along with the mods.

Also, since a lot of time is dedicated to the contest, now that time can be dedicated to writing more poems. Also, I think the weekly is like by many due to the comments received by the judges, if there is no comments every week, perhaps those judges may have more time to contribute to writing comments of their own to other members.

And, who knows, we might come to figure out how exactly was the tie breaker broken by the computer” if we experiment for a few months.
Hey, also, if no one is satisfied with that perhaps we might get more volunteers to be judges.

Just adding my two cents.

P.s. I’m writing them in a hurry. Sorry if what I wrote makes no sense.

How about creating new threads as shoutouts for new members? Every two weeks or so. So that instead of winning new members may get featuring on the popular poems section.

Edit: I am not sure how that section works, but I think this may help.

I like that idea, we did Poet of the Week a long while back, it'd be interesting to bring that back and/or focus it on newer poets. The popular poems section looks at date posted views/comments and likes.

I think Larry was right about the poets with less contest wins gets the break, the fact that the winning poems from years ago display the win badge after the site update lets us know that information is being kept, not a stretch to think it's being used to break ties. :)

Rania here.

Very interesting suggestions. If I missed any and didn't add it, kindly let me know. Will see what you guys negotiate and perhaps make a voting ?

For me, I suggest changing the status of all members (or as many as possible) (or a number we all agree on) to "judge" giving every person the option to vote (10,7,4) etc. from their personal account.

When the site updates itself the 3 poems with the highest points will automatically be on the Front Page. Not everyone has to commit on weekly basis, but since more people are being able to vote, then we are always on the safe side.

We post the results like we always do, however without points; we consider the 3 winners as top poems of the week equally; and every person would leave a comment (willingly) for the poems they voted for. We could also make analysis of the poems on the weekly thread? I think this is somehow applicable ? And would help people be engaged more.

and true we would have a LOT of HMs, but I think it's not wrong! It's for free, and would encourage people to write more and be active, with their poems being highlighted, perhaps they would feel appreciated and realize that someone actually read and liked their poetry.

I've just re-read this whole thread to get up to speed. (Judges 2)

Seems the solution to a number of issues raised is plain for all to see.

Problem one
Judges are biased and picking poets over poetry

solution? Don't have judges anymore

Problem two
It's getting more and more difficult to recruit judges each term for the weekly.

solution? Don't have judges anymore.

Problem three
Judges step forward, give up some time and are roundly criticized.

solution? Don't have judges anymore (we can then aim our cannons at the site algorithm )

Problem four

The site is growing stale and we need new ideas for running the weekly contest.

solution? Don't have judges anymore.

Problem five

There is too much emphasis on the weekly contest.

solution? Don't have judges anymore. (let the weekly run as a random event in the background)

There we have it problem solved, in the last few years on this site I have solved the Greek debt crisis, the expanding universe puzzle and now the weekly contest saga.
I think I missed my calling.

Personally. I feel Darren has hit the nail well and truly on the head...

After being a judge myself, I can vouch for it being tricky and tbh you can only do your best when your met with choosing 3 poems out of usually 25+ nominated ones but the choices you make are never truly good enough because no one will ever have the same vote. I believe that having the contest run in the background could possibly be much fairer and that way blame for a poet being chosen more than once in a said time scale cannot be finger pointed.

I cannot love this post enough.

I think it would interesting and hilarious to see what it would be like without judges. No one could argue bias then.

Here are my Votes and Comments

YES to...
4, A: Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone on their personal accounts, poems with highest points go to the front page. We make weekly comments and analysis of winning poems.

and

YES to 10- Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site since that has nothing to do with the weekly competition and would help.

No to 1, 2, 7
No to 3, 4b, 8 on grounds no Janis
Possible to 5, 6, 9

Summary of votes and comments

1- Judging---but in public, no anonymous status ? (NO)
Comment: I don't think this will make any more difference than liking poems in which case why not just pick the poems with the most likes?

2- Votes without comments ? - (NO)
Comment - Not having to write comments makes it even more likely for voting for people rather than poems since there is no tool for justifying choice.

3- A random generator for all nominated poems (needs Janis) (NOT POSSIBLE AT PRESENT)
Comment - impossible for an immediate solution as requires Janis

4, A: Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone on their personal accounts, poems with highest points go to the front page. We make weekly comments and analysis of winning poems. (YES)
Comment - This could definitely work - people who want to put in the effort to vote as and when they can without being tied into weeks on end of judging.

Or

4, B:- Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone ( Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges) [needs Janis - number of votes per account is limited to 3 votes) (NOT POSSIBLE AT PRESENT)
Comment - Cant be used at present as no Janis.

5- The system picks the winners each week for the front page and if possible the HMs (the old system) (POSSIBLE)
Comment - this takes it out of the hands of judges but if the HMs are not possible then only the three wins happen each week which may or may not judge the poems on merit and means that less people get badges.

6- A barter system?- If you publish more than one poem in a week then you should be prepared to step up and judge for the following week to give something back to the community. (POSSIBLE)
Comment - Might work but more likely in the direction of reducing the poem bombing rather than increase the amount of judges

7 - We stop having the competition - (NO)
Comment - this would be really sad because it gives an extra dimension to the site and without the three front page winners each week there is little to engage the people on the mailing list and also nothing to aim for.

8 - Continue with the present regime but have a new badge for the Judges - (received at end of each term) the more judging terms you do the more points you get (needs Janis) (NOT POSSIBLE AT PRESENT)
Comment - not possible at present due to no Janis

9- 1. Reserve 1 win for lesser-known poets to bring site-wide attention to them :) Can have either a judge/mod solely for scouting for new people. (POSSIBLE)
Comment - This is a good idea in theory but is it not going to feed the complaints of picking people rather than poetry quality?

10- Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site. (YES)
Comment - this should be done regardless of the weekly poetry competition because engaging and retaining people is what is important at this stage.

Rania I agree I think making everyone able to vote is the fairest option does that still include the HMs? I think they are really important to retain as it helps more people get recognition for their poems

Jamie I think whatever the judging process there will always be someone who thinks it is unfair. That is the nature of life. The computer wouldn't choose winners based on the best written poem but on who wins the least in the past or on some unfathomable algorithm. Which will make it possible for more people to win regardless of talent.

Making everyone vote per se might be seemed as popularity vote as well. Some can probably just pick a ten on their favorite poem and not vote for the others. The work the mods may have to do might increase.

Continuing with the contest but without judges takes away work from the mods. At least, they won’t have to focus on the weekly threads or making sure every judge had submitted their votes and comments.

Also, my take is that judges are usually the ones with spare time in their lives or who prioritize the site more, and if they are not judging, I take it that they might be more active in the site.

Edit: deleted this question, I believe is off topic.

The computer wouldn't choose winners based on the best written poem but on who wins the least in the past or on some unfathomable algorithm. “ by Milly.

^ well, if you think about it, it’ll be something similar as how the contest is currently running, some members are not satisfied with the winners and don’t considered those entries as the best written per se. If we allow the computer to pick the winners, who knows, there might be more variety of poems in the front pages and different poets exposed. Isn’t that what some members want?

My only question is, does the computer pick the winners only on the poems that have been nominated or the whole site?

My votes:

1 no, 2 no, 3 no, 4A no, 4B no, 4C YES, 5 no, 6 no, 7 no, 8 Yes, 9 maybe, 10 yes

Comments. My own opinions, strictly personal:

1- Judging---but in public, no anonymous status ?

Don’t like it. Targets judges for those who attack

2- Votes without comments ?

Personally, I think comments have as much importance as the vote

3- A random generator for all nominated poems (needs Janis)

For all we know that is already present - leave out the judges & you may have this one. In a two-way-tie, the site SEEMS to pick the poem whose author has the fewest wins (possibly Hms may count). However, in a greater-than-two-way-tie that goes out the window entirely.
I still don’t like it.

4, A: Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone on their personal accounts, poems with highest points go to the front page. We make weekly comments and analysis of winning poems.

Okay, just kick out the posturing & turn it into a popularity contest. *Who* makes weekly comments and analysis of winning poems?

Or

4, B:- Open up the weekly judging buttons to everyone ( Suggest a new account set up specifically for the weekly competition emails that can be accessed by Mods and or monthly judges) [needs Janis - number of votes per account is limited to 3 votes)

Needs Janis

NEW: 4C: Create a dedicated account where people vote by PM & weekly mod casts resulting votes. Works as an extra judge.

5- The system picks the winners each week for the front page and if possible the HMs (the old system)

Basically the same as 3 - no judges. But there would be no HMs.

6- A barter system?- If you publish more than one poem in a week then you should be prepared to step up and judge for the following week to give something back to the community.

Don’t think it’s enforceable.

7 - We stop having the competition

Only way for that to happen without Janis is for everyone to agree not to nominate poems. If even one poem is nominated, it goes to the front page.

8 - Continue with the present regime but have a new badge for the Judges - (received at end of each term) the more judging terms you do the more points you get (needs Janis)

Yes, needs Janis (already on his to-do list).

9- Reserve 1 win for lesser-known poets to bring site-wide attention to them :) Can have either a judge/mod solely for scouting for new people.

We would need to have at least two votes cast to assure it to win. Is this automatically degradation of quality, or do we agree that quality is subjective anyway?

10- Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site.

Yes, if done in a separate Judge account like 4C. I like this. You need to nominate that poem & get two “10s” guaranteed for it.

More information regarding the 'themed' weekly contest.

sat/sun night decide on theme & set up a thread i.e

[W1 - Weekly Contest]
- info about form or theme as needed,

and then mass pm users about contest with link to thread,

then mon-friday evening, people can enter by adding the suffix [W1] / or [contest] or whatever tag, remind judges to only vote on poems eligible for the themed contest.

Can do this every other week or whenever.

10- Experiment with themes/challenges, 1 week everyone writes a haiku and the contest is dedicated to only haikus, etc, might get people more involved in the site.

^ okay, let me see if I understood correctly. This is how I am picturing it.

This would be like opening a new thread every Sat with a new theme and closing the contest every Thursday, so every Friday everyone can judge. Then every Sunday, Mods can cast the vote
on the top three poems that won so That the winner poems may appear on the front page on Monday.

I mean, just like we have done with the current contests. A new thread is open. The theme and rules are stated. Poets submit their poems to the host via private message. The host arranges the poems without the name of the author and posts them for judging. Then the public or a set of judges messages the host with their top choices. The host gathers up the votes and calculates who the winner is. Then whoever won goes to the front page. Something like that?

I think that sounds fair. Everyone who participates will be judge based on the same rules of the theme. It’ll be less harder to judge. And whoever participates will be by choice.

4A, 6, and 8 sound wonderful but honestly shouldn't we all come together to judge? Yes we all have lives but can we truly not give up an HR for one day to judge?

Just had an idea....

If the Moderators set up a new user account called Weekly Competition anyone wanting their poem to be considered for the competition for that week could send in their poem in an email to that account containing their poem. (Not to be published on the main site or would be disqualified) The Mods or volunteer could cut and paste that poem into a new poem under the weekly competition account and publish it. All poems would be then anonymous and be able to be judged by everyone on merit alone.

A) Everyone on the site could then read, comment, like each and at the end of the week the Mods enter manually the Winners based on the poems with the most likes which should show up then as the wins and HMS on the system (or if everyone is allowed to nominate a poem then the nominations with the most likes are winners and if a tie opened up for manual judging on a thread)

OR

B) People read all the poems for that week (skip the nomination) and just send in their votes and comments on their top three poems for the Mods to collate and put on the system and reveal the winners on the Monday as normal.

C) Everyone on the site read, comment and like and nominate only poems from that account - The nominated poems are cut and pasted into a thread where everyone can read them and compare side by side and pick their winning choices to email in with comments.

(All of this depends upon whether or not the Mods have a way of manually transferring the winning poems back to their owners and applying the wins and HMs to a poem and writer in time for the system to generate the win)

Janis is required for that to work, mods dont have the power to apply wins/HMs to poems.

Im open to whatever everyone decides really. I just want to write and post my poems, I want to read poems and comment when I want to comment.

Open judging buttons sounds good..

Darren, your post is hilarious and filled with much truth. I'm 100% down to try a term without judges. What will the site come up with? Will it bring Janis' return?