This woman is killing me dead

- nevermind

Yaki this is quiet meaningful! thank you for sharing! i loved it

I find this post (a requote from Warsan Shire, a Somali poet living in London) quite inappropriate to be posted in open discussion pages, wide open for viewing by minors.
It may have deeper meaning, and I may be naive, but if I have difficulty with interpreting the true symbolism or educational value, I worry about the innocent kids who visit or write on this site and the influence on their developing brain.

Sorry, unless someone can explain the true meaningful symbolism from the use of inappropriate and vulgar language used freely in this quote, consider deleting it....

Yaki and Ms. Sunshine or whoever else who understands this post better, educate me with your interpretation.

Its a bout a man, trying to make clear that no woman can take advantage of him.. a man trying to hide his shame.. Mr Lonely Soul.

Liked it, would've shared it on FB if I were able.

Yaki: I wish you really really understood what you are publishing here. I researched the author and her works, and figured out what she is writing about. It is most DEFINITELY not what you interpreted ^^:

["Its a bout a man, trying to make clear that no woman can take advantage of him.. a man trying to hide his shame.. Mr. Lonely Soul".]

This poem is about FGM, a 2000 year old African practice, in part supported by misguided religious believers, and how Warsan Shire's radical style of poetry is raising awareness about this sickening cultural and traditional practice which is abhorrent to the modern world. Here, is a link (Warning: only for over 18 yr olds) to learn about FGM:

http://wolvesdreams.tripod.com/FGM.html

Hopefully, this sickening practice will come to an end with her help (No problem with her...she is a one of a kind poet...writes on female subversion and similar topics to raise awareness).

My objection to posting a poem/prose of this sort is the "adult language" used in an open thread like this. Here are examples of phrases used in this poem/prose which are disturbing and may influence the young fragile minds who would accept them as literal profanities and conclude that these are acceptable uses of phraseology :

- He says, 'That ain't natural, people are supposed to f*ck.'
- He says 'I could use one finger to make you sob'
-He says 'Boys become men in the laps of women, you know?'
-He says 'If you were mine you wouldn't get away with this shit, I'd eat you for hours, I'd gut you like fruit.'

There is no rule against posting profane language (direct or implied) in a forum (only prohibited in the Title) as of yet (but MODS should definitely revist this issue), but self restraint and discretion when sharing such things will be much appreciated. 10-18 year olds are not exactly adults, are they?

As for the person who wants to post it on their FB, the response was most expected....I could have guessed it a mile away. Please do post it, there is enough freedom of speech on the internet to do so.......... I will just have to be a responsible parent and tell my 14 yr old to wait another 4 years before he asks me to join facebook. He has more than enough homework to do.... than join FB and ask me after reading it... dad what does this poem mean? Can I take it to my class and share it with my buddies as I like it....it should be Ok to do so, because a 17-year old posted it on her FB.

.

ALS, this poem is about a man who was raped as a child. Something that is never touched on in our society but really should be.

As for your fear of vulgar language...why do you cower from it so? It is a simply natural and purely honest way of speech. In literature vulgar language makes us feel as though we're talking about real people and not just floating entities twirling about under the night sky or what have you.

Before this gets out of hand: ALS, you are being condescending. Just a bit of feedback.
Noura, sheath your claws, this argument is not about you per se, so don't take on the victim role when you don't need to.

The poem is earthy in it's language, and perhaps another mod may take offense. I find it to be a deeply complex dialogue touching on matters raised by everyone.

On the surface, it portrays banter between the speaker and a young man, full of bluster. The poem delves into the false bravado of the young man, unmasked by the author. It references female genital mutilation or female castration, which is a heinous practice in various areas. The poem finally discloses the youth's shame of the rape and the fact that he is really not OK with it.

Don't let this thread turn in to another frontal assault, Poetess. Time and time again you have practiced this art form on many people here, including myself....just look back at your own posts and comments. Have I ever responded in the same mannerism as you do? Should I have? A discussion and differing viewpoints is polite and does get your point across, as long as the nature of written speech not violate the bounderies of disagreement, real or virtual. I can only respond in subtle ways, being an adult, however provoked.

Take for example, right here the very reason you wanted to post this on your FB is you saw my post expressing concern over a poet's profane language (not anything else), and felt this is the very place you want to put this adult down again when you saw my post, which you have tried unsuccessfully many a times. So, I expressed a concern, citing my 14 yr old's potential for exposure by a 17-year old. Whether I am right or wrong is not the point, I have a right to protest when people feel it is their right to expose children (<16 for sure, and < 20 when they are still immature) to profanities. The exposure to early age vulgar language can do irreversible damage to a developing child's brain....something no parent or teacher can fix. You are a classic poster child yourself on this....how many times have you used the f*** word in your posts...there was a point earlier this year you were doing it every few day, and it even became infectious and I saw even a mod catch on to it! If I raise a concern of outright vulgar, dirty and strongly worded poetry, both direct and implied, being placed outside the designated area, I am just voicing Janis's thoughts on it and his directions to the mods as to what he wants not to see on his "private" website in the open. The poem itself is highlighting a shunned topic (FGM), something the UN has been pushing to outlaw it completely, and the author is using her talent in pursuing it, a cause I will unhesitantly support.
So move beyond the frontal personal attacks and if you want to gain recognition as a responsible adult, use discretionary words when posting your disagreement.

Jordan, have I answered your question, up there. I hope this kind of stuff does not end up in middle schoolers textbooks one day...that is my concern, when putiing it out in the open.
-------------------------------------------------
Larry, I am not condescending, you have been over protective to certain people and condescending/sarcastic to some others, when you should be neutral, setting up bad examples to the rest of us. Your job as a mod is to make sure that people refrain from direct personal attacks and profanities in discussion forums and guide them along not criticize them directly, as you just did.

You folks can debate as much as you want but if you use direct offensive words, beware I will respond.

That's a moving text, with the subtle message... Warsan's great and always realistic.

-

With respect to profanity, kids nowadays do not need to read sex words just to get aroused or offended or brain-damaged or I don't know what's the word. There is youtube and britney spears and tv and all porno sites out there.... if you know what I mean.

LMAO Britney Spears

I can see the concern here. We cant nominate poems from the explicit genre to be on the front page, but we can post poems like these in a forum for the public to see..I get it..We want to keep this site as modest as we can right?

However, I really like when Yaki posts poems that I've never read from incredibly talented poets....so how can we get around this?

Is there a way we can try making forums not public anymore??...Even if it wasn't public though, there are tons of young kids on this site that could read it if we made forums "members only"...so is the suggestion that we don't share things like this at all??...note: I don't have a tone and I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really curious as to what a solution for this should be.

The easy solution might be "ask Janis"...it is his website, if you want to create an explicit posting thread.

But, it does not guarantee anything. Children/teens are curious by nature and they tend to go where it says "adults only". eg Poetess just went in and wrote her comment on Abby's poem "condom".....So if there is no coding by the website developer to restrict this form of behavior, and not get penalized or warned for it either, you are just encouraging it. First, ask Janis to code the explicit section such that no person under the declared age of 18 can go on it.

Once you are a parent of a young teenager you would know what not to do, it just comes naturally.

Hey, guys I don't want to offend anyone, but remember also not to offend me either. I have feelings too....so don't try to trample on them freely and think you can get away without an apology. As a parent, I have experience in how to handle situations with teens, which you all will also gain soon. If you haven't read the Freudian stages of psychosexual development or have knowledge of what is a conduct disorder, an oppositional defiant disorder or similar stuff, do read it...you may find it is sometimes "you" and not the "90 yr old" that you set out to insult. And if you do that, be prepared for a counter, if it is someone like me. And when you are my age, you may find comfort in knowing that the very thing you encouraged on here, will come back and bite at you.

Freudian theories of why this "rebellious" stuff happens to teens/adults in "kid pants", though put away by modern psychoanalysts now, are more educational than arguing about the f*** stuff in poetry and prose and like.

I post on approximately every thread Yaki makes and tell her my opinion on the pieces she shares. I'm not interested in picking on you. Not at all. I actually can't stand talking to you but you've been using my age as a way to make fun of me and I've been neglecting it and heck you won't stop it. If I want to share it on FB or not, it's hardly any of your business and definitely not meant to seem directed at you or your post.

You insult and bother others in your own way, you act all nicely and, as you claim, "humorous" but still offensive... just like the joke you made about why I'm unable to send PMs in a previous thread.

Anyway, I will edit my post.

Chels, as I remember, your suggestion has been discussed before, maybe when the plagiarism issue was up. I don't know if it's on Janis' to-do list already or has been rejected but I like it. It'll solve many problems, I guess.

Edit: Apologise to you? Lmao... are you... are you... Gee, not in this lifetime.

If you fear this being read by youngsters, I think its actually good that they read it..

We need a youth with an open mind, and censoring them from everything only makes things worse

you really, always blow things out of proportion..

were we married in another life and I cheated on you or so??,... sincerely, leave me alone

I'm done sharing things on here. blegh

But, it does not guarantee anything. Children/teens are curious by nature and they tend to go where it says "adults only".

^ Right thats why I'm not sure what you are proposing we do? Because Children will do that, and they will also create an account just to read an explicit section...People can lie ya know, so if we do an 18 yrs or older section, hell, anyone can say they are 18...anyone can still get access to see a post like this. .. so is there really a way to rid this?

Poetess, here is my response...read your own posts, please. :)

I still love your work. Stick to it, the rest is immaterial, as long as you don't start calling people 3 times your age, "senile" or something similar...don't forget, when you are my age and another 17 yr old will do it to you, how will you feel?

Beware of laying eggs, which can explode on your own face.

------------------------

Chelsea, you know you have a point, and I have an answer for it.....but let the mods go for it first.
----------------------------
Yaki and Jordan: It is "never OK"
for "explicit" stuff to be posted by an adult for public viewing.....that is why adults have to be responsible in the age of the internet and not use an excuse that it happens all over, so why not here. When you have teens you would automatically agree.
------
Keep firing at me, but I have to go to work now.

Now all I can picture is Noura getting splattered with egg yolk..lmao Lets just make this a humor thread now and keep it light and fluffy :) Remember what season we are in and love one another yes?? Anyone?? hugs??

When I am old enough to start writing my bio but still unable to curb my curiosity and passion to pick on people? Wow I'd feel really terrible if ya ask me. And the eggs bit scared me, now you have me worried and thinking.

No worries Nour...one big food fight sounds eppiccc! :) here are some tomatoes....and flour, and whip cream...let's just get this started....

Forget the serious atmosphere people!

Seriously it pains me that some people are so narrow minded....

I read this before it was deleted, and think I remember it well enough to talk about it.

I don't feel that the explicit language of the poem was used to arouse or titillate. It definitely wasn't supposed to be sexy. I think it was used directly and intentionally to make the reader feel somewhat raw and uncomfortable, because that's what the subject matter was.

If you go into the explicit section, you get a lot of people writing about sex in a generally positive way, where it's meant to be sensual. I don't see that here. This wasn't pornographic in the least (and if a teen on the internet wants that, they sure aren't going to come here and read this poem.) I think the language was used to a specific artistic purpose - to highlight the rough subject matter.

In fact, I think squeamishness regarding this language is something that plays into the culture of shame surrounding rape. Maybe it's something that we SHOULD be talking about openly. It's explicit because rape and genetic mutilation are explicit, and we probably shouldn't be shying away from an honest talk about it. That's my opinion.

Jah Bless . the queen has spoken.. muah

Also, warsan shire followed me on twitter and the fangirl in me cried for hours

The poem wasn't focussed on genital mutilation, and even if it was, what of it? As long as it isn't meaninglessly advocating it, what's the case?

Raising awareness of world issues and cultures, raising awareness of art - these are good things.

I don't see that it warrants such a tone of severe shame and disapproval. I feel this only demeans and distorts the power of the 'naughty words' beyond their true worth in the context of the poem. The poem was far beyond that. And this website is meant for people with a poetic bent. Generally, it is ridiculous trying to censor anything on the internet, especially when it isn't gratuitous. Some poetry is meant to be read with your eyes closed and your mind open, not the other way round.

Yaki, I loved the poem and I lament what happened in this thread. I do hope you don't stop presenting me with your poetic gems.

To all loved PnQ members: I declare this "food fight" over...(love the expression Chelsey), from my side, so don't fret. This was not serious enough to sweat over or cry over...worse things have happened here.

My apologies to all who felt hurt by me raising the objection on posting vulgar language openly.

Sibyllene: However much I like you for what you do for PnQ, and your "groomed" approach to "modding" I have to disagree again.

Requoting challenging lines from the poem (now removed)

"- He says, 'That ain't natural, people are supposed to f*ck.'
- He says 'I could use one finger to make you sob'
-He says 'Boys become men in the laps of women, you know?'
-He says 'If you were mine you wouldn't get away with this shit, I'd eat you for hours, I'd gut you like fruit.'

^ I am curious what you really thought what these lines meant. Yes, pictorial and video pornography is also an artform like any other art, just like use of vulgar language in poetry....so why restrict our young one's from it too? Why criticize the porn sites from posting such art on the web either? So, what I implied from your statement was this poem was so much of an artform, because it raised awareness about a challengin issue, it should stay on open pages of a shared website,.... why worry ...children will have enough brain to distinguish between the two forms...they should be able to appreciate the real poetic art from in-between the lines expressing ".....F***, I could make you sob with one finger, if you were mine I would eat you for hours....", at this tender age.
Sure, perhaps some precocious one's would, but would the majority? What do you think the take home message and inspiration for them would be?...Perhaps, I should write something like that too, as Warsan Shire a famous poet wrote it, and Yaki (another to be famous poet) cited it for me to read and learn from. Perhaps I should send it to my friends and discuss it in class as I found it in the elite discussion forums of this famous website calleed PnQ.

This is a website shared by all ages, not just for adults. The stats show that. When you folks are parents of a very young teen who is on here would you not want to investigate first as to what they are surfing, and if the website safe enough for your 10-15 yr old kid to wander unsupervised. And then you run across poems of the "explicit" nature and a whole section devoted to it, and then find out that the website has no real coding to even hide them from kids...what would you do as a responsible parent? Would you let your kid go and read those "saucy" poems and learn from them the value of "good" English literature and vocabulary?

I may sound old fashioned, but my single objection to this poem was the excessive vulgarity of language, direct and implied, in it...and not the message delivered. I simply asked for a voluntary removal. That has been done, so I thank you Yaki for your co-operation.

^ALS, can I ask you a question? Where do you live?

Because I live in an Islamic society between the most conservative, religious, respectful people in the world. Yet, in our science books, between a child and their parents, and at a quite young age, everything becomes fearlessly open and properly discussed. And it's not that scary.
If you want your kids to never have the slightest idea about this whole subject then fine. Wait till their pals at school throw a joke or talk about it but don't suppress others freedoms. This site is for poets and not kids, anyway, unless they're supervised which is your responsibility.

Plus, it's a Janis rule that we actually can use vulgar English and swear words as long as they're not directed at a member... so I don't really know why we're still arguing.

I hope you won't let this get to you, Yaki.

PnQ community-1
ALS- 0

Ok so its been voted that its ok to keep posting these....let's move on :)

Hiding things like this from youth is exactly why most people don't understand what the definition of rape is.

ALS I hope you're teaching your kids instead of plugging their ears.

I so wish I could agree with you folks.

Noura: You may be the most "idealistic" "poster child" here. May I ask, what age did you start drinking and having serious boyfriends and s** in your so called "conservative" Islamic society which you claim preaches the most wonderful "morals" in the world. An dhow come, you dint get them? In your parts Americans are looked upon as the "model trash" of the world, perhaps because your society thinks they violate all the basic tenets of societal evils. This is a big mistake...people here too are the same....protect chlildren from being exposed and abuse. So, failure to look within oneself when following the most "idealist" religion based fundamentals.

Would I want to preach your "early age" self exposure to my kid who is just 14 ? Would you (when you are a parent) or any sane parent want to allow children under age of 16 to do what you seemingly have already done. So the answer here to me is I definitely would not want to be responsible for my child to follow in your model footsteps maturing in to adult hood. That would be a big failure on my part.
Did you have a "health class" (i.e sex education classses) in school, like most kids in the US, beginning in the 6th grade. This is where most kids get education, other than their parents giving them the "birds and bees" talk and guiding them along responsibly as the teen brain matures.

Plus, you yourself admit you are not "normal" ...tend to be confrontational/argumentative and lose temper with adults on a "regular basis". Would I want my child to learn from your example? Should I be teaching him how to argue with adults. How to tread on the borders of what is unsafe and what is acceptable? Should I allow him to do what you already did at this early age, just because you and some others think it is "Ok"? Should I allow him to post "vulgar language" and "f***" words in threads anywhere?

You said, ^^^ "This site is for poets and not kids, anyway, unless they're supervised which is your responsibility."

^My qn to you? Were you supervised when you posted all the "niceities" and went about flouting all the rules of "decent" conversation with adults? arguing and insulting many people. Should I let my "supervised" kid follow your example? Should I allow him to make fun of other adults/chidren/teens and let him throw temper tantrums in adult threads, if you consider this as an "adult" site?

One day when you grow up to be my age, reflect on yourself, ask these very qns to yourself and see what your "mature" brain would think about your own "juvenile" behavior.
Have you read about this condition?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002504/

And I know you will fly off the wall again. :)

So, please be a responsible teen, and grow in to a respected adult. Don't try to teach adults who already are responsible to let their teen do what you think they should be doing.

I hate to criticize, and would have never treaded in this direction, but to bring a sense of realization to you, I have to write these unpleasant sounding words. Does that mean I do not like you when you "behave" responsibly....I do, because I am an adult, who is forgiving, not vindictive, who has spent a lifetime studying/helping people like you one way or another. You are just beginning in your life, so seek the truth.
Peace, and leave this provocative topic alone. :)

Jordan: You are an adult, hopefully responsible. I have read your other posts, in many threads, so my answer to you is try not to be a "judge or a jury" for others....you may find that there are many things you yourself wish you would have done differently yourself while growing up. and wait till you have a teen! Then talk to me again.

Chelsey: Since when did you become the scorekeeper for discussion threads? :) Do the people writing in this thread truly represent the majority of adults in PnQ? Can you stop being a cheerleader for people who have yet to find there feet in life.

"try not to be a "judge or a jury" for others."

Good aspiration for everyone, including the speaker.

Noura & David, you are both egging the other on, specifically aiming diatribes guaranteed to elicit negative responses.

Stop it.

Lmao hey listen here, I'm just trying to keep the mood light...I'm not cheering on everyone, just stating the obvious that the majority has spoken , and the majority ruled. Ew a cheerleader, I'd be caught dead before I ever became one of those...Go team go! *shakes pom poms*..no

I just think the thread should end or be taken more lightly because you people get too heated over stupid crap. :) *smiles*

^

Majority does not always mean right. It could mean more number of wrong people on the same side. Which would inevitably lead to the majority indulging a false sense of self righteousness, which would then be passed on to the future generations, or threads in this case.

Sorry for the interjection. Please continue. Although this is going no where.

No offense lovely =)

This is true....shut up. I was trying to end it LOL.

sigh* I just read ALS last post to Noura....he has such a great way of making people feel bad about themselves....

My parents monitored a lot that I did. Online, who I hung out with, where I went. I was raised by a Christian mom, who follows the bible down to a T, and yes I am a Christian as well, but when I was 16- 19 yrs old I got lost in boys arms and alcohol...Do neither of those things anymore at 21, however I just don't think its right to criticize how Nour lives her life or what she does, because regardless if you think you monitor what your 14 yr old kid does constantly, like my mom thought she did with me, your kid could lie a lot like I did... I felt smothered and I rebelled. Regret it all now? Of course! But I refuse to let someone make me feel bad about mistakes I make at a young age...You sir, should not be doing that to Noura. Its unfair, she is young, and young people do things, act certain ways, are inappropriate and disrespectful with adults some time....it happens. But I guess your 14 yr old is incredibly perfect and I can only hope to have a child like him/her some day.

I agree to cool it with the personal stuff. Unless there was some major editing, it looked like Noura was just saying that she lives in a very conservative place, and they still talk about sex openly. She wasn't asking to be held up as a personal model, and I don't think it's fair for you to speak against her character like that. I hope she turns the other cheek, here.

On to the other stuff - I still disagree that the poem was vulgar. It used crude, raw language (that isn't foreign to 14 year olds, I'm sorry to have to tell you) to show, as Larry said, the bravada and overcompensating of someone who has been assaulted. I don't think it could have worked in any other way. It wasn't meant to be modeled and emulated. It was MEANT to look crude, so that the reader could see that there was something wrong, here. Of course the quotes you chose were sexual. They were supposed to be. But the poem itself was not sexual.

I would disagree that most pornography is an art form, but I think that's a bit of a digression.

I don't know what I would prefer, as a parent. I'd probably want them to never see or hear anything bad or violent in their lives. However, that's not reality, and I do think it's the parents duty to guide and chaperone their kids. The internet isn't going to censor itself. I think we could use more places that are willing to discuss things like sex frankly and sensitively, and it will be the responsibility of the parents to decide whether they want their kids to have access to that or not.

Perhaps, in the future, Yaki (or whoever) could include some sort of advisory in the title of potentially sensitive threads, as Larry did with his "seduction" contest. Sure, it might draw more attention, but it would give people an idea of what they were getting into before they clicked.

For me, though, it comes down to this: There are already plenty of institutions who, by choice or by nature, promote censorship. We already have enough voices calling for closed books. It's not a black or white issue, but in most cases I would rather lend my voice to the side of openness. Especially where sex (and sexual assault) are concerned, we do victims of all ages a disservice by censoring "naughty words" that are just trying to illustrate their experiences.

Wait...

Dafuq did I just read?

Porn is an art? *_*

So you mean that art is to be jerked on? like I read a Shakespeare poem then I play with my buddy?

-

I think Sib said it all.

-

And... Chelsey... I swear what you wrote felt like an emotional prose. It's awesome :') Thanks for sharing your experience.

LMFAO LP!

"Romeo, Romeo, where aren't thou Romeo?"

*grabs lube*

hhahahah omg Im cracking up...

I totally agree with Sib...why is Sib always right? Dang, shes like the PnQ God, I wish I held her power!

LOL @ emotional prose...you might have just inspire a poem out of that :) Thank you! And you're welcome, I don't mind being open about my experience if it can help a young girl or boy from being targeted as a bad role model, or a rude person, or made felt like they are the scum of the Earth which is where I felt that was leading. Teenage years are crucial. We find out who we are, what we want, we experience with many different things. If any of those happen to turn out to be a mistake..oh well! Such is life and we learn from them. . I can't stand when people point out other peoples flaws as if they never had any or as if their family is perfect....we are all flawed. We just have to keep working at perfecting our flaws, which I know is hard for Nour, but she tries....lets give her credit...

*bows*

"Romeo, Romeo, where aren't thou Romeo?"

*grabs lube*

^ LOOOOOOOOL - that would be so un-arousing.
HaHaHa

"I can't stand when people point out other peoples flaws as if they never had any or as if their family is perfect....we are all flawed. We just have to keep working at perfecting our flaws."

^ An oscar is coming your wayyy !

I read the poem and the author did a great job portraying the insecurities the guy felt.
Though, it was a sad piece in the sense that he was a 12 year old who was taken advantage of.. so he now thinks that one is supposed to F.. as a duty? so this poems shows how him as a victim was affected.

As far as the language goes, I am just concern... how will a kid interpret and react to the content of the poem?. I'm also not too sure as to what is the aim of the poem? I found myself sympathizing with the guy towards the end. Is the poem's aim to raise awareness that man who behave in such a way might be victims of rape/abuse? Or that man also experience abuse, but they are man and so they need to deal with it as man? or is the objective of the poem to say that man are also victims and something has to be done?

That's the only nit pick that I had about the poem, that the author is not telling clearly as to what is the objective, therefore, I see ALS point and I see this poem as adult content.

However, that doesn't changes the fact that I like the poems that Yaki has posted, I like this one it made me think. I'm not too sure how children will interpret it, though.

EDIT: thanks for removing it.