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Look, I didn't join this thread with the intention of entering into personal feuds or insults. My intention was simply to try and understand whether there was more to Maher's poem and a more complex reason behind him writing it than merely him being labelled a sexist pig on a public forum. It seemed tome he was being hung, drawn and quartered without saying a word in response.
I certainly didn't mean any disrespect to anyone - quite the contrary. We all agree his piece was ill judged, I just obviously made the mistake of questioning why.

A debate is fine, picking apart a member on a public forum is not fine.

I’d like to highlight here a common tool that a person uses to divide women and uphold patriarchy. And it almost always comes from a person who self identifies as an enlightened supporter of women’s rights:

“Why are you disregarding many of your fellow women’s opinions on sexuality/etc as sexist and oppressive? She has a right to feel the way she wants.”

The same people who use this argument might even send you articles/quotes/anecdotes that advocate and protect patriarchal views, ensuring first that they are all from a woman’s perspective.

They also tend to think that women should feel lucky and content to belong to their own culture, and direct attention to cultures where sexist practices seem more overt to them.

Finally, these people are fragile when it comes to women speaking up against men, “Now now, ladies, don’t misjudge him, let’s stay calm and understanding” then make excuses for men and get defensive. They will centre themselves in the conversation and feel victimised.

These people have very little idea or interest in dismantling patriarchy or listening to feminists spelling it out for them. It’s important to practice noticing some textbook characteristics of the more insidious operators of patriarchy, coming in the guise of progressive individuals. You can try engaging with them, but you’ll probably be wasting your time.

Everyone is on a different journey in their feminism, and not all feminism is identical. But I would still focus on having feminist conversations with people who are more likely to become allies (most often women) when you bring up feminist issues. This sounds more like:

“I didn’t realise/think about it that way before.”
“Thanks for explaining that.”
“I still don’t understand, could you expand more on…”
“I need to do more reading on…”
“Do you think it’s okay if…”
“I would love to hear your thoughts on…”
Or even respectful silence.

A potential ally always makes more space for you, not less.

Publicly addressing a piece which was publicly posted, by the author himself no less, should not be condemned, for that is a double standard. Maher made the conscious choice to post his sexist opinions where all could read them. His opinions nearly made the front page.

“A potential ally always makes more space for you, not less.” Wonderful.

Ben, no one said pig. Sexist, yes of course, because that’s exactly what his poem is… But no one said pig. You are being needlessly inflammatory in order to protect Maher.

----

Some of you are spending an awfully lot of energy defending and sympathizing with the person who wrote sexist words, rather than defending and sympathizing with those negatively impacted by his words. It speaks volumes.

He has the ability to say anything in response. Actually, I would like him to do so. But maybe he doesn’t have anything to say to defend his “opinion”?

Also, I didn’t use “pig”. Don’t put words in my mouth.

“A potential ally always makes more space for you, not less.”

Abby, can I quote that and use it everyday?

Jane, I may have exagerated to make a point, but please, no one here can say at any point I have attempted to inflame the situation. I have clearly tried de-escalating it on a number of occassions. I may have got a few things wrong on this thread, but how dare you say I am being needlessly inflammatory. You are only proving how immature and rude you are. Grow up, and stop fishing for arguments.
Noura - I never mentioned your name once. Get your head out your own ........ for once

"You are only proving how immature and rude you are. Grow up, and stop fishing for arguments."

Ha. Proving my point once more. Yes, you are being inflammatory by inventing name-calling that no one used, and by suggesting that Maher is being hung, drawn, and quartered, and now you're being disturbingly patronizing in this latest comment to me. You do realize I'm a grown woman, not a little girl? You've shown your true colors here. Can't wait to watch you start in on sexist insults. You've certainly held off for as long as you could! I'm joining Abby in no longer responding to you, Ben. Wow.

To be honest, ladies, your beginning to sound a little manic and quite possibly insecure. Next thing you'll be doing is burning your bras and protesting women taking men's names! :) I know what you won't be doing though: listening to other people's opinions...

*thank you, Jane. I did ask for something like that earlier in the thread when I was trying to moderate it...you've likely forgotten that though

And patronizing? Jane, you have spent the whole discussion patronising anyone who doesn't agree with you. Grown woman? Frightening that

"To be honest, ladies, your beginning to sound a little manic and quite possibly insecure. Next thing you'll be doing is burning your bras and protesting women taking men's names! :)" - Ben

Ah, Jane, I knew youd be roped in easily again. Is that that woman's strength you keep talking on about? Work on that.

And Jane, perhaps you missed the humour in that comment of minr you quoted. It was a joke but I know you're determined to see the worst in people

Look at us acting all grown up.

I'm done. Really, Jane. I'M done.

"Ah, Jane, I knew youd be roped in easily again. Is that that woman's strength you keep talking on about? Work on that." - Ben

Behold, the rapid unveiling of a false ally for women.

Ooof, Ben, you do have anger issues to work on. Fine, get it outta your system, pal. It hurts to be a sexist and being proven wrong publicly by this many women. I am very tempted to join both abby and Jane in ignoring your unnecessarily dramatic insults, but I’m even more tempted to see you adding more insults to injury and showing your true colors.

“I’m just joking” is also not an excuse for sexism. Stop excusing and perpetuating the gender stereotyping and discrimination against women. “Just joking” masks your covert sexism that is essentially meant to erode a woman's confidence.

And if you think this: “Next thing you'll be doing is burning your bras and protesting women taking men's names!” is humorous, you still also need to work on making it at least funny.

Part of the point of discussing this, in my eyes at least, is to actively address sexism and not have it turn into defending the poet, who chose to write and publicly post the poem. It's different giving someone the "benefit of the doubt" if it may be one isolated incident where someone truly didn't know about something, was told about it, did their research, made a correction and continued to grow from it. Intent shouldn't always matter if we're not willing to listen and realize that, even if someone meant well, harmful ideas were brought forth. Also, commenting on past interactions with Maher have nothing to do with the topic at hand. None of us are spamming him or cursing at him, and I don't see these posts as ridiculing or being anywhere near hostile. We're not dragging him through the mud or sullying his name, and he has had and still has the option to reply. I've already re-read Jane and Abby's words several times and learned from those replies alone. We all can continually learn and do better. No one is excluded from that. The reality that this poem made others feel uncomfortable and hurt and whatever else should be our greatest concern and is 10000% valid.

It doesn't sit well with me that there are implications that something may or not be as much of an issue based on "well some women may not be offended or bothered by it, so leave it up to them to decide". Like previously said, internalized misogyny is a thing. And differences of opinions are not what we're talking about here, as many have already powerfully pointed out.

Is our focus more on defending someone, even if we weren't personally hurt by the content, because we believe it just wasn't worded the best way and that he may have had okay intentions... or is our focus more on listening to the women on this site on how to be a more inclusive feminist, ally and person overall?

I invited Ben to join this discussion because I wanted the opinion of a male member who was also the father of a young teenage daughter to see if his point of view was different from the single males who have been contributing. As this seems to have turned into a name calling, point scoring game now I can only apologise to him for putting him in a nasty situation.

I don’t see anyone calling others names, except for him, Hellon.

You should have been apologizing to us for his behavior.

Can I just ask am I wrong to criticize my daughter (17) for wearing something a little skimpy to college.

Am I being an old fashioned over protective father
Or a sexist pig.

(Slightly off topic I know)

Let's keep in mind that the men on this site do not need to be catered to or protected as if they're children. This is one of the most concerning undercurrents to this thread. These are grown men responsible for their own words, as we all should be held responsible for our own words. Hellon need not be made responsible for apologizing to Ben, or be made responsible for apologizing on behalf of him. Maher need not be shielded from accountability for what he wrote. We can do better than this, surely.

I’d do as my father did. Teach her how to defend and protect herself on her own, and kick a potential rapist in the derrière if they dare hurt her. The female body must be free of rape culture.

To be fair she is a wrestler.

Also just so everybody feels a little older, she is the same daughter who joined this site as a 9 year old and caused a bit of a ruckus.

As for Maher's 'poem'

I felt for the female in the story, we get one life, live it as you wish (apart from previously mentioned daughter for a least 1 more year)

I was a little concerned with the tone, the apparent pride in the final put down

That is my opinion, I might be wrong
(Ask my wife, I usually am)

Darren, I don't think this is an off topic question to ask. It's valid and related. I also don't think the answer is as simple as 'this or that.' First, let's remove that pig word entirely because there's no need for name calling here. I think your behavior is old fashioned and protective, yes, but I also think 'old fashioned' in this sense is not free from sexism. Let's try to dissect what you've asked. Would you criticize your son for wearing skimpy clothing? If you would not, then yes, we are looking at a sexist double standard. Do you feel that your daughter is responsible for the words/actions of boys/men? If so, yes, this is placing the burden of responsibility on her when boys and men should be responsible for themselves. This is an overwhelming sexist sociocultural trend -- asking that girls be responsible for boys. It sounds like you don't want your daughter to be objectified, and that's understandable, but again, we border on victim-blaming when we ask the person being objectified to change rather than ask objectifiers to stop objectifying. In schools, girls are too often humiliated and punished for their clothes (in order to protect boys from being 'distracted'), and this places the onus of responsibility once more, heavily, on girls, and it perpetuates the sexualization of girls' bodies. What do you hope to prevent by criticizing your daughter for wearing "skimpy" clothing? As we talked about briefly early on in this debate, clothes do not prevent or precipitate unwanted sexual advances. So then I guess the question is how do you protect your daughter from sexual danger? I'd love to brainstorm with you and others on this, but I think talking to her about consent and safe sex would be a start. Maybe practice some judgment call exercises (e.g., "if you feel like something isn't right, make an excuse and leave") or more specific "escape" exercises (e.g., a list of easy excuses she can use to leave a situation, a codeword she can text you so that you call her and fake an emergency, a rideshare app downloaded to her phone that you are willing to pay for if she needs to get out of somewhere fast, etc.), and make sure she knows she can come to you for support if she is ever harassed or assaulted, and maybe ensure she knows what constitutes harassment/assault, and who to report these behaviors to if/when they occur, etc.

--

EDIT: My dad used to say, "Jane, don't just give it away," jokingly, if I wore something skimpy as a teenager. That phrase had a negative impact on my budding sexuality. It implied that my body was something that could be given away, like an object, or that my body could be taken away from me. He also liked to quote Muhammed Ali, who famously said to his daughter, "Your body is sacred. You're far more precious than diamonds and pearls, and you should be covered too." It never sat right with me, but I wasn't able to explain why until adulthood. My body is not an object, and it does not lose value by being uncovered. My body remains part of me, cherished by me, loved by me, and respected by me whether or not I choose to have lots of consensual casual sex. One could argue that engaging in enjoyable safe sex is a way to honor one's body. Anyway, I've been in a very fulfilling, faithful monogamous relationship for 9 years, and so none of this applies to me directly, but I fully support sexual liberation in whatever way is most fulfilling and healthy to every individual. Kids need adult protection, but sometimes the greatest ways to protect them are not always the most obvious. I generally dressed very modestly growing up, and I still dealt with my fair share of harassment and even assault. I didn't have the proper tools to protect myself and usually shut down (froze) or fawned when given unwanted sexual attention.
Oh, and I had a talk with my dad in my early 20s about his problematic phrases. He was very understanding and apologized for not knowing better, so we're all good :) If we try to do our best until we know better, and then we try to do better, that's the most we can ask of ourselves or of others.

To be honest I think I just stumbled down the stereotypical father route. I trust her 100% it's lads her age I don't. Because I was one many moons ago.

I have discussed contraception with her. With mother present as well.

After reading your post...
I'm going to do something bold from tomorrow morning. I'm not going to mention anything to do with how she is dressed.

It might take some practice though. I might have to buy one of them pool balls that have a strap attached that go in your mouth.
She'd probably be more mortified seeing me sporting that than telling her to put her boobs away.

That's really amazing Daren, the action you decided to take just after hearing a different POV from another woman's perspective. Your daughter will really appreciate your "sporting" approach. I'm sure.

Rock on, Darren. I'd love to know how it goes!

"She'd probably be more mortified seeing me sporting that than telling her to put her boobs away."

I laughed out loud.

This thread turned a little sad, no that's wrong it started out sad with this site celebrating a disgusting piece of garbage. Thing is everyone here agrees it shouldn't have been nominated and received an HM yet some are still defending his right to do so

Thank you Noura for highlighting this

I've read everybody's posts some are excellent, most not all. Sadly in the heat of the moment Ben has even resorted to sexist remarks of his own, come on Ben you're bigger than that surely? .
Maybe Friendships have even played a part with those coming to his defence siting his right to his opinion. Yet this gives credence to Maher's words. Have you never dressed up and been to a bar or club ? have daughters, sisters, that go clubbing. This guy has called you all sl#ts. Are you happy to support his right to express that opinion on here when he may welll be referencing you or family... seriously? Well I have a daughter that goes clubbing and I sure as hell don't!

Maher's words are abhorrent and have no place here or anywhere else and his right to his option be damed!

In 2002, I was very close to an Australian girl who worked with me. Shortly after meeting her, she was raped and brutally beaten. I have rarely been through more trauma in my life. The brutality of the act and the aftermath were almost too much to bear, and I have never been able to quite grasp how she must have felt. It inspired the poem below.

https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1268114

I wrote this in 2018, years after the event but with very little closure, for her (obviously) or for me. I never acknowledged the topic at the time of posting as it was too painful and felt wrong somehow - like I was cheapening the event somehow for 'likes' or comments. Sadly, it now feels does feel right, in defence of me, yes, but the memory of that event too and the profound effect it had on me. I lost touch with her, but I know that if she were to read some of these baseless accusations against me she would be devastated and - despite it being paranoia on my part - I feel I need to explain, despite the fact I know she will never read this.
For years after - even now - I have tried desperately to grapple with the concept of this kind of male brutality toward women and life in general. I have hated men - my own sex - with a passion even most women couldn't possibly understand and I have quite literally driven myself crazy trying to fathom 'why?' I suppose that sometimes (perversely perhaps) has led me to being too inquisitive as to the nature of sexism/violence against women and have tried overly hard to moderate the often indefensible so I can simply empathise without bias. On this thread, I truly believe that is my only real error: I tried to defend what was indefensible and so aggravated the scenario further and compounded any offense already caused For that, I am genuinely sorry.
However, I will not and cannot tolerate sexism being thrown at me. I have a beautiful wife and a precious daughter who I would move heaven and earth for, because they deserve it. Because they have to grow up in a world that is dominated by aggressive men who cannot control themselves. That is my shame, my sex's shame and my burden. No amount of textbook psycho-analysis and clever words from other members can overcome that one simple point: I am not a sexist. I hate men and I hate what too often we have come to stand for. You do not know me at all. How dare you level that at me?

Yep, exactly what I thought.

Does nobody in the west give a damn about a massacre if it’s committed against arabs? What is that? Racism? Arabophobia?

^^

A couple of months ago, this was levelled at P n Q generally. I take that as me too. I am a passionate, compassionate man who does not in anyway associate with the term racism. My very best friend of twenty years is muslim, and I have worked with him for as many. Without explicitly calling the community sexist, this post suggest we are for not answering a thread which was highly charged, both politically and emotionally - the latter being the far more important of the two. Does that make those who didn't contribute weak? Perhaps. Does it make us racist, as is at least suggested? Absolutely not. So in a few months, I have been labelled sexist and racist, or as good as, by a caring, sharing and understanding community who seek to create and help each other. Let's get one thing absolutely clear: these are not terms that are thrown around lightly by any decent stretch of the imagination. They are quite literally life defining terms that make you a good person or a bad one. How on earth is it now deemed acceptable to judge and name call to the extremity without having the slightest inclination of a person's pas, let alone ever meeting them? Quite frankly, it's disgusting. A lot of you reading this will nod and agree without ever saying a word in support, and I expect nothing at this stage, believe me. But you know I am right.

I got so much on this thread wrong and for that I am genuinely sorry. I am so full of mistakes. I am difficult to live with, I suffer huge bouts of depression and I drink far too much red wine. But I do care and I do love - passionately. Women most of all, in fact - believe that or not. But I cannot accept the treatment I have received - the judgement that seems to have been pronounced on me and the stigma that seems so readily applied to me. Why? Because it is so far from the f....g truth. I am literally shaking with anger and upset as I write this.

I have a thirteen year old daughter who I am hugely protective of, for all the crappy 'men' reasons mentioned above. She got her first phone a year ago and is not allowed anywhere near social media. I suggested she joined this site. Sure, it gets heated now and again (and I was often the problem) but no one was ever unfriendly or overly judgemental. My God, how I got that wrong. Since joining this thread, I have been disregarded and ridiculed, often in the most condescending ways - "have a nice day, champ' - 'try another one' - and so on, for simply trying to understand. As above, perhaps there was no understanding but did I honestly deserve that level of rudeness for attempting to shed some light on a clearly upsetting thread, however crudely I did it?

People have spoken throughout about how offense needs to be called out and dealt with openly. I have taken great offense at the tone of this thread, and am far more upset than angry. There have been times in the past where I have clearly only had myself to blame, but just read my first post and give me the benefit of the doubt: did I deserve that level of rebuttal, culminating in the label of sexist or sexist persuasions at the least? Genuinely, I don't think so.

Keira is a beautiful, talented girl who has contributed vastly to this site since she joined, but I will not have her on here anymore. I have to tell her in the morning to close her account. I won't have her reading the vile accusations against me or being part of a community that is supposed to be open-minded and full of empathy but is quite the reverse. I won't close my account instantly because I have far more work to back up than her, but I will certainly no longer be part of P n Q. In the past, I have closed my account in instant anger - now it's with genuine consideration and upset, but knowing I can't continue here any longer. These threads, these arguments take too much out of me and when they conclude with this level of on-line abuse - which is what being called sexist and racist is - I hold my hands up and say 'this is not what art's about'.

I say again: I got lots wrong here and for that I am genuinely sorry. No, Abbey, not a sexist victim, just a guy who means what he says, can you believe? They are out there, despite what you think. I hope others can one day accept there part here too.

*I'm too tired and frankly too upset to edit mistakes, so excuse any of them.

Look Ben I don't know you and you don't know me, Thing is you made a sexist comment in error or jest or whatever, how you internalise that is up to you. Do I think you a bad person, no far from it. Have I made mistakes.. too many to count, have I made sexist comments more than likely, certainly when I was younger. Did I view women as Mahar does .. Never

If you leave this site will miss you,  you have been a valued contributor for many years

You do realize that saying “I’m sorry” a couple of times amidst a huge list of examples detailing why you’re upset that people called you on your shit is not actually an apology, right?

You spent more time talking yourself up as an ally and using the women in your life as a meat shield than anything.

That’s a real “woe is me” pity party if I’ve ever heard one. Also do you really think being called sexist when you make sexist remarks and defend a sexist poem is abuse? How about buck up and think about the situation from the outside? This is why women have been silent for so long. Because discourse and calling people out are considered unfair for some asinine reason.

Thoughts and prayers, pal. Thoughts and prayers.

Apologies all, I don't follow threads much on here but Hiraeth was kind enough to message me the link as a heads up. I also apologise to all who it offended, to an extent.

Yes, this is a very provoking post. Yes, it is a true story that I've left quite a bit from the co-worker's side out of and I'm second guessing now that I probably should have included them based on the response this has triggered in this thread. Such as the time she insisted on flashing me after a meeting when the staff had all left the room, or the time she called me over to the IT storage room to help her move a desk before shutting the door and trying to approach me in a manner that could easily be imagined. I left those two instances out of a bigger handful out, though I believe they'd be labelled as sexual harassment.

The conversation in question happened after all of my co-worker's attempts, all of which happened not long after my divorce (weeks), so yes, I agree that my response to her at the end was quite offensive. I'm thankful that there were some in this thread who picked up on my co-worker's racial/religious slur, which now you know happened after many events leading up to this conversation. I responded to her in the same way she insulted me to prove a point, that if she wanted to take a stab at my choice of religion/way of life, I could take stabs at hers, because equality, right? Seems equality only goes so far though, as an entire comment thread erupted with slurs against me without a mod at the very least having contacted me with a question or for an explanation. It's also interesting to find that my posts only seem to have gotten attention after this storm started, after which they were diligently read to find one other possible example.

Again, I agree that what you found offensive in the post IS actually offensive and it was intentional as a retort to the way my co-worker offended me. My co-worker knew which button to press to get my reaction and I knew which button to press in return. Granted, we didn't speak to each other at all for a couple of weeks after that, but we became quite good friends afterwards when we both sat down together and apologised for both of our reactions. In hindsight, I should have included all this, but the conversation on it's own seemed more hard hitting to get people to look at both sides, so I left it at that.

That all being said, I do apologise to those who were offended. I won't bother going into defending myself for not being sexist as I know it would likely be disregarded, case in point this entire thread piled up against me. Nor will I inquire as to why it got a HM.

So on that note, being that I have already been labelled, I'll be happy to take that post down. I'll even be happy to take all my posts down. I generally only log in to check for messages from a couple of friends, so I'm fine with doing that. I'll even refrain from posting anything going forward as it seems that anything I might post will be labelled as I have.

Looking forward to a decision from the powers that be on this site.

Stay safe all.

"Yes, this is a very provoking post. Yes, it is a true story that I've left quite a bit from the co-worker's side out of and I'm second guessing now that I probably should have included them based on the response this has triggered in this thread. Such as the time she insisted on flashing me after a meeting when the staff had all left the room, or the time she called me over to the IT storage room to help her move a desk before shutting the door and trying to approach me in a manner that could easily be imagined. I left those two instances out of a bigger handful out, though I believe they'd be labelled as sexual harassment."

Those are instances of sexual harassment, but I'm unclear how being sexually harassed by an individual justifies being sexist about all women who don't fit into your box of purity.

"The conversation in question happened after all of my co-worker's attempts, all of which happened not long after my divorce (weeks), so yes, I agree that my response to her at the end was quite offensive."

At least we can agree that your response was quite offensive.

"I'm thankful that there were some in this thread who picked up on my co-worker's racial/religious slur, which now you know happened after many events leading up to this conversation."

We all picked up on the racial/religious slur. Racism does not justify sexism, and she is not a member on this site, while you are. More to the point, the majority of your poem -- the substance -- was you making a shaming argument about women who wear clothing you don't find modest enough, or who go out clubbing, or who have casual consensual sex. Really I covered all of the sexist issues with your 'poem' in my initial post in this thread.
Now if you were really only making these points to her to show how ridiculous and small-minded they are, similar to her racism, then I can understand, but it seems to me that this isn't the case at all, and you really do believe what you said to her. If so, your defense is moot, don't you think?

"Seems equality only goes so far though, as an entire comment thread erupted with slurs against me without a mod at the very least having contacted me with a question or for an explanation."

The poem is sexist. It is quite offensive, and you said so yourself.

"It's also interesting to find that my posts only seem to have gotten attention after this storm started, after which they were diligently read to find one other possible example."

I commend Mark for taking the time to show us that this was not a one off. You have written a similar, if not worse poem previously. That's informative to your general mindset about women.

"So on that note, being that I have already been labelled, I'll be happy to take that post down."

This isn't the first time in this thread where someone has treated 'being labeled as sexist' as somehow worse than, or even vaguely comparable to being the victim of sexism.

If you want to take the 'poem' down, do so, but we aren't taking moderator action. I posted as a member, and I presume the other mods who shared their views here also posted as members, and as women hurt or offended by your words.

--

EDIT: I'd like to add that regardless of what your views are, the 'poem' and points within are representative of a much bigger, broader, overarching global narrative about women and female sexuality, and that's why Abby (and some others) didn't care if you entered to explain yourself, or not. The views you stated are dangerous to women, not to mention quite offensive (again, like you said), and it's vital that we address rape culture and patriarchal attitudes for the sake of all women. Your poem was nominated, and then honored, and it's even been defended to some degree by members in this thread, and so this is not merely a "Maher issue" that we're addressing, but a larger issue of how women are viewed and treated around the world, and specifically on this site. I'm very distracted at the moment, but I'm hoping that came out clearly.

**************************************************************************************I try to protect homeless women now.... Wanna try and debate that? These women are disgraced for asking for some socks and deodorant because "All homeless people are drug addicts" please.... give me a damn break. I am not defending anyone. Nor will I ever. all I am saying is this is a poetry site and there are poems and such people post that I do not agree with nor do I read it, but I dont think the member should be labeled or brought on trial. That is how I feel. If I got offended but what I hear, read and visualize daily... then I would be offended every minute of every day.

Just to clarify, the argument in the post was between myself and a co-worker, not myself and all women. As I said, if my content is that offensive, I'm happy to remove it all, though I'm sure that if I did the same kind of digging through others' posts I'd find examples of men being shamed. Maybe they didn't get HMs, but they are there and unnoticed.

Any response I give will ultimately be disregarded and further slurred, which in all honesty doesn't bother me as the post did what it was meant to - it got people talking. Unfortunately, it also got heated to a point where people in the thread were being shamed for having opinions.

I respect your opinion on the post itself, but I disagree with the attacks on me as a person. I'll leave it at that. I have lovely friends on here who know me better than what's being said in this thread and I respect and value their opinions more than ones from people who I have never interacted with.

You're free to call me what you wish and judge as you will. As I said, if I'm requested to have all my posts removed, I'll be happy to oblige.

Stay safe.

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Also for Christ’s sake why do people hide behind excuses?

“Oh I lost a leg in 1999. This poem about ableism is cool by me so that should be enough.”

I’m sore to hear about your traumatic experience but I don’t think it is something that should be used to diminish the seriousness of this topic.

Anyway none of that changes the fact that the poem in question is not beyond being called a gross piece of non-art that didn’t deserve an HM. And tbh it’s so bad that the people who don’t like it don’t give a solitary crap about the “oooh it’s just a poetry site” bs.

Know who else is a poet? Bukowski. And he’s gross. AND 20 bucks says heaps of incels that might like the poem in question would also be huge Bukowski fans.

Are you enjoying tossing insults Jordan? You think its funny? Self promotion?--- I said what I needed to say .
This isn't my first rodeo getting insulted by people on this site and it wont be my last.

I didn't use it to diminish the seriousness of this topic, I shared it to allow people to know that I understand ALL TOO Well. That being said
you insulted me and embarrassed me for sharing so I will remove that part of my post.

Hey. I’m sorry. I’ve had a couple of drinks and didn’t think enough before I typed..

I realize I can’t take back what I wrote, but I edited it. I still don’t agree with you, however I do understand that I spoke out of turn and for that I apologize. Will try to do better in the future.

Andrea, I'm so deeply sorry for what you've been through. I've been in a physically abusive relationship myself, and been assaulted. I have friends who've been violently raped and molested. I've worked in shelters, mental hospitals, jails, and prisons with women who've suffered immensely. I don't pretend to imagine what you've been through, and our experiences are unique and should be respected as such. With regard to the spectrum of sexism, I think rape, domestic violence, and murder are arguably the absolute worst/at the most severe end. I'm glad for your sake that you've learned compartmentalization, which is important to avoid burnout in your field, and in mine (social work). I don't think you mean to be dismissive of other forms of sexism that women experience, and how emotionally, mentally, and physically harmful these forms can be -- in fact, the simplest forms of sexism play a significant role in the prevalence of the most extreme forms. I'm glad you have "thick skin," and I hope it's okay that I use that term, but I am concerned with calling out and addressing all forms of sexism wherever I see them. It's okay that you want to focus your energy on the bigger issues.
EDIT: The work you do requires so much strength, devotion, generosity, compassion, etc., and I want to make sure you know I recognize that and I appreciate you even if we don't always see quite eye to eye.

I'll echo Jordan's sentiments here. It strikes me as odd that you've defended people's freedom to opinions earlier on this thread, when you said that cultures/countries may have sexists views and that might be the norm there, and should be left at that since they have their own opinion (something I do not agree with because this is an issue that's pervasive globally and is not limited to cultures nor countries). And then said it isn't fair to attack Maher, when throughout the thread, people were attacking his views, and not him, which is something that should be made clear. That being said what did jump out to me was you telling noura to get her own head out of her ***, that Jane's immature, then calling them manic and insecure, and making a supposed joke that's insensitive given the subject at hand, if anything, in my opinion the conversation was rather civil up until that point, but you haven't acknowledged that point but decided to play victim. You say you're not racist/sexist, but why did you feel the need to defend Maher, when the conversation was simply about the sexist views that was on display in two of his poems? It doesn't bode well with me, you can easily just have said those views are wrong, and have messaged Maher about chiming in. Also, Abby steered the conversation towards sexism in general, it wasn't focused on Maher, up until Hellon wanted him to chime in, then you chimed in about 'condemning a person to the bowels of hell' for one 'opinion'. Like Noura said earlier, this isn't an opinion. Also for someone who said that hates men, and hate what we can stand for - shouldn't you be more passionate about calling out those sexist views and harmful culture? That definitely wasn't the case here.

I mean just look at the conversation that was just had with Darren, it was respectful, genuine, enlightening, whereas the conversation that was had with you. No one took anything personal, and the topic at hand was discussed in a civil manner.

As for Maher, your other poem, 'Am I Toxic' still echoes the same sentiments in 'Food for Thought' that you claim is meant to be shocking to get your point across. All that came into question was your views on women, yet you and Ben doubled down and act like the victim in this.

Sure, it's a poetry site at the end of the day, but a poem with dangerous ideology was this close to being on the front page of P&Q, if that had happened, what would that say about P&Q, and the community here? I think it was important and necessary to have this conversation not only because of that, but to keep people accountable. People aren't perfect, but we're capable of learning and growing from out mistakes once we own up to them. Choosing to stay silent on things that matter, is choosing to be complicit.

Also Ben, I already wrote a script to backup work off p&q some ages ago, and found it, it doesn't save explicit works, but everything else will be backed up.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvpP0-qxEsyrDKDIDYGGV4GLs1rv7I_J/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HU3XwPm3F1uZ_qxra6FWYHKB-p-7uuaI/view?usp=sharing

Backed it up for you.

As I said, you're all free to hold whatever opinions you have about myself or my posts. I have nothing against any of you and hold no ill will. I'm not claiming to be a victim here. People react, as I did to my co-worker after multiple attempts of sexual harassment and derogatory comments from her that were aimed at specifically hitting me where it hurts for rejecting her advances. My point is, people may respond in a way that hurts out of anger or frustration - I'm sure we all have at some point. If you were to judge people by that one moment you see them upset, then the world would be a dreadful place.

Am I Toxic, if anything, shows the extent I went to not to treat her as an object by refusing to stare at her and engage in any misconduct. In it I used any excuse not to look at her in a lustful way, even when she persisted, which is also legally sexual harassment on her part. It also admits that as a man, I'm weak when it comes to women's sexual advances. Had I have approached a woman in such a way, I'd have this thread in reality after me. There's nothing wrong with women who want to embrace their sexuality, but it doesn't mean it should be forced on anyone who doesn't hold those views. If I don't want to be repeatedly hit on, then I don't have to comply. Hence the title of the poem "Am I Toxic" if I don't engage.

This is a great discussion and I'm glad it's being had, but if it could please remain so without flinging mud. People can disagree and that's a great thing.

Stay safe.

I was wondering Maher why do you think anything you post in the future would be labelled as so? You agreed that your content was offensive, and you said this is not how you think, you even suggested to remove the poem- speaking on behalf of myself ONLY, not the site or the ladies or the Mods, I really do think you should not keep that piece up. This is not a decision from anyone, I am just sharing my sentiments. But that doesn't mean anyone should leave the site or stop writing poems. We can all have a civil discussion here. Nothing is a taboo. Others tried to make it clear that this has nothing to do with you as a person but rather the thoughts addressed in your response and approach to defend yourself against your co-worker.

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Andrea, you're a bold, brave person. I love how tough you are, how mature and how understanding of others. Always.

Thank you Jane, I adore you and it's ok to disagree. Nana I love you, thank you

Jordan, thank you for apologizing and again it's ok that you don't agree with me, but may I suggest having a bottled water next time while posting ? Ha!