Weekly Contest Winners - June 21, 2021!

Maher,

The vibe I got from "Am I Toxic" was that you equate morals with sexuality, and I felt that the piece added to the idea that if you resist the temptation of a woman or whatever, you're somehow more of a man. That feels icky right off the bat. Not to mention that you're assuming she would feel exploited or seen as an object if you flirted back with her and everything was consensual. I feel like you're hinting that there's a superiority or better quality in women who "have standards" versus women who keep more to themselves and don't actively flirt or dress in a way you deem as unacceptable. Do you see why the whole notion of judging women based on their "standards" is extremely problematic? It has nothing to do with their worth or character.

In that poem, you also mention that she may have wanted to lay in bed with you, yet you blame her for sexualizing herself? There's so many contradictions. Then, you question if it doesn't count because "she's allowed", as in, it's accepted (not that she has free will or any agency over her body). It's a disservice to men to assume that they can't respectfully honor and be with women consensually in any sexual manner. Maybe I'm not explaining it right, but you also talk about toxic femininity.... which seem sexist to even bring up, as it feels like more of a false equivalency to toxic masculinity (but I could be wrong). And due to a patriarchal society, I'm unsure of how toxic femininity could be on the same level.

It's almost like you're portraying yourself and other men as helpless to the power of women and sexual freedom, so resisting women grants you more strength, resolve and morality. Whereas, I and other feminists don't believe men are helpless to their emotions or desires, and can be active advocates for women. It's fine if you're more conservative in regards to sex or what you personally want to do, but I feel that the piece is full of hypocrisy and assumes that a woman's sexual freedom is not of her own will but to please males, to service them etc.

When you say if a man did this, looked at a woman lustfully, that he'd be in big trouble, but if a woman does it she's fine... there's a lot to unpack there that I can't even go into now.

I think it's been discussed at the beginning of this thread that someone's openness with their sexuality has no bearings on their morality. That needs to be stated again. Also, unwarranted sexual advances are NEVER okay and sexual abuse and harassment happen in all genders, of course. Consent is a constant thing. What I'm talking about is the way you're implying women can't be confident with themselves, their bodies, and feel empowered without compromising their morals. When you say "forced on anyone who doesn't hold those views", do you mean being flirty? Or having curves, wearing perfume, all the things you mentioned in your poem? Women simply existing? Or that any woman who wears/dresses/moves how she wants is there only to cater to males, and it's up to you to "not give in"? It seems YOU are the one sexualizing women. Example: if a woman wears clothing you deem as too short, then she walks by you and your immediate thought is that it's an attempt to seduce you.

Also wanted to address your reply in the comments of that poem: "Worst part is, people defend these things vigorously saying "they should be able to do what makes them happy!", but when something bad happens as a consequence of what they do, it's not their fault but the entire society's fault"

I mean, it's one thing to talk about media sexualizing women for the purpose of entertainment and views, etc, as well as the sexualization of minors, but then you diverge into "something bad happening as a consequence of what they do". So "acting" or "dressing" or merely "existing" can prompt and justify an assault then? Nothing warrants rape. Rape is not a consequence of a woman doing anything wrong. The fault is never, ever on her. It's 100% on the perpetrator. I don't get why that's a difficult concept.

Hi Rania,

Thank you for your feedback, I've deleted the post.

As to why I believe future posts would be labelled as sexist: I think that's pretty evident in this thread :) When your mindset gets labelled, it's as good as labelling you. When people have a bias on something, their views become tainted with that bias in future interactions. It's honestly natural human psychology, I don't blame anyone for it. That's how things like the media work. They disagree with one thing and then dig into that person's past to try and find anything else to support their view and then publicly announce it. There are magazines that capitalise on that very thing. The fact that people were trying to find the equivalent of ammo to justify labelling me or at least my posts as sexist also speaks for itself, in my opinion.

Take "Am I Toxic", for example. It's about an actual event where I refused to engage in treating a woman like a sexual object, even though she was blatantly behaving sexually toward me in front of those who were with her and everyone else in the train carriage in peak hour on a train from the heart of the city. I was obviously not comfortable with it and I'm sure that showed on me physically to at least some degree for her and her friends to see, but nobody stepped in to call it wrong. That poem is being used to label me (or my posts) as a sexist. Now I'm sure we'd agree that had the roles have been reversed, I'd have been escorted off the train by a train guard or police with potential harassment charges. That was the point of that poem. Was I toxic for not following society and giving in to her, or were my attempts at ignoring her advances a positive thing? I left that question for the audience to think about.

Indeed, some of my content is offensive, but to shed light on the other side of the coin. I have seen poems here in the past where people write about those they hate and wish unspeakable things on them, whether it be from a relationship perspective or otherwise. Does that make the author a psycho, murderer or any other such label? I personally think not, as I don't know the person or the context and therefore can't label them even if I wanted to. I'm sure if you dig through the P&Q archives you'll find poetry against men written by women who have been hurt, but I wouldn't go out of my way to label them as being sexist or their work as containing misandry. It's probably only because they didn't receive an HM and get publicised that they slipped under the radar unnoticed. If I thought their work was that offensive and I was a Mod, I'd consider reaching out to the author to maybe gain some insight, rather than having a forum explosion without their knowledge. If they're like me and don't really follow the forum side of this site, they'd never have known. I'd not have known about this myself if it wasn't for Hiraeth being kind enough to give me a heads up, and I'm glad that was the case, so thank you Hiraeth.

Again, no ill will toward anyone here as I know it was a provocative post. But I would genuinely like to ask: what would have been an appropriate response in a state of severe frustration in that scenario? Considering my mental state at that time being freshly divorced after 5yrs of marriage, my co-worker's weeks of sexual harassment at the workplace (some of which were also physical) and a stab at what I hold most dear - my faith and calling women of my faith and culture oppressed. It's a genuine question :)

That's the beauty of posting on a public site. People can interpret your posts in whatever way they like. It could be the total opposite of what was intended, but even then it could still make sense to the reader, which is something that I find to be pretty awesome. Where you found one message, someone else could find another, and another person could find another - the messages they interpret are ultimately based on the reader's own values. So it makes you think.

I can tell you I never intended to come off as "holier than thou" or anything of the sort, but some people will see it that way based on their lens of the world. It's actually very fascinating. My lens of the world is that I find that I'm being disrespectful to a woman if I approach her in such a way, or if I speak about her beliefs or culture. If a woman finds me not responding to her advances offensive, then that's her belief, but my intention wasn't to be offensive or disrespectful, it was to respect her by not sleeping with her because I just don't like to engage in that sort of thing. It shouldn't be forced on me in the same way a man's advances shouldn't be forced on women. I've been called many things by women for this: "frigid, gay, virgin, soft" and MANY other much more derogatory terms, all because I simply am not interested in those kinds of interactions. I can confidently say that many of my friends would have probably jumped at the chance to be me in that train scene though lol, but unfortunately for the girl it's not what I personally find attractive, but she was quite beautiful, so I'm sure she'd have no problem finding someone else. I suppose it's also a compliment in a way to me, because I'm pretty sure she was way out of my league.

For some reason, I find that you expressed yourself WAY better in this post, than you did in your previous attempts, including in the true event that you experienced.

I understood from your post that you were physically approached by someone without your consent and no one did anything about it, but trust me it wasn't because you were a male. This could have happened with any woman. Not all cases go reported. If the ladies hear speak up, I think you would be amazed to know how many times others, in addition to what Andrea said, were molested, assaulted or went through a familiar situation. I've been there, go hunt my poems. Yes, in some cases you would have been escorted off a train and in other cases the whole thing could been disregarded by witnesses. Not everyone speaks up or stands up for themselves or for others. This is the same as bullying. The circumstances play a role in how the situation is tackled.

I think you used poor arguments when trying to defend yourself in places where you were rightful. I believe that was the case with your co-worker, who no body here denied that she is a racist, ignorant person. No one defended her. She provoked you, but since you are asking, in such situations, don't let ignorant people provoke you into saying things you disapprove of just to make a point. I've frequently heard hateful comments in my life, and was judged and perhaps still get judged, by people who either judge me for my background or for knowing half of the story. In your response to the person who accused women of your faith of oppression, you accused women of different lifestyle of something equally bad. I would not wish to put labels again and quote you or interpret your words.

I do see your good intention in explaining your position and I can sense that you do see where things have gone wrong. Otherwise you would have insisted on your thoughts and kept your poem up.

and Ofcourse no one should force themselves on you just because you are a male. No one here suggested that, and what MA was trying to do is to explain that your post implied women who flirt are less worthy than women who don't. I guess you already replied regarding this and with what you revealed, I'm sorry you were also labeled many things for being different or having certain beliefs. But this happens, it's not okay, but responding by hateful sentiments won't help you. Instead you should stand up and sue whoever insults you and show them a better version of yourself and your faith. Isn't that what faith is about?

All we wanted to say is that this is not about "opinions" or "cultures" - It's about ending stereotyping; e.i. a good woman wears modest clothes and covers up, a bad woman shows skin and goes loud. A covered woman is stupid. A covered woman is a saint. We should all agree that a person who chooses modesty is neither a saint, nor protected from sexual assault. A woman who chooses to wear less and live without boundaries could have better and more honest intentions than her fellow veiled person. We all know, don't we ?

We can't always choose the right words and make a perfect argument, that's true. No one should wait until you choose the wrong words and pick on you either. I'm sure it was no one's intention. But if you really understood us, then you shouldn't worry about future posts and you should perhaps take advantage of this discussion to come up with a better approach to deal with haters and racist people. Knowing what faith you follow, I think you could definitely do better.. in judging others and standing up for yourself in a way that's not on the expense of others. Thank you Maher for taking these posts lightly and attempting to understand others. . You are right, we all said and did things that we shouldn't at some points, it's true for myself. Thus, I hope you follow Darren and reconsider your approach. We are all on that track.

Thank you, Rania, I really appreciate your response to my question. Unfortunately, when you go to a manager and it gets brushed off and then an Ops manager and it still gets brushed off...it's not a nice feeling to know that nobody is listening and assume that all men must love it when he's flashed or hit on by a woman, no matter how attractive she may be.

I also thank you for approaching this the way you did, it really means a lot. I also posted a reply on your winning poem offering to talk. I apologise for that, I honestly thought you were a friend of mine also named Rania who was on this site. I also speak to her via text and it slipped my mind that you have a different last name - I just thought you were her, that something was wrong and wanted to see if I could help.

Thank you everyone and stay safe :)

Most managers won't do anything, let alone in such situations. I won't lecture you on how to build a character for these situations or how to respond to people. I failed miserably for years until I learned how to do so.

It goes both ways, yes.

And, I am sorry if you thought I was offended by your comment, this has nothing to do with that. I read all the comments on my poem the same day and on the contrary, it was very kind of you to offer to talk, but as you said people interpret things differently. It was just a personal poem that everyone could read from their own perspective. Thank you for caring either way. There was nothing wrong with it.

Well, I'd best explain to the other Rania what's going on as I texted her earlier and apologised for offending her. She's messaged back saying she has no idea what I'm on about. Just a tad bit embarrassing :|

Am I missing something here? Maher was never approached by a mod to inform him that his HM was being discussed at great length on this thread, when Mark messaged him he did come on to explain his thoughts further and now, the poem has been deleted and it would appear we are playing happy families again. Jordan was down right rude to Andrea but got away with it. On the other side of the coin Ben tried unsuccessfully to understand everyone's point of view but was shot down at every turn to the point where he feels he needs to leave and no one has batted an eyelid so far, Mark even seems to have helped him on his way by providing back up for him and his daughter. I thought you guys were much better than this...

I’ll take that under advisement :)

Okay, Ben, sure. Have a nice day, champ!

^^

Mark, what about this is 'civil'

'try another one'

^
Mark, what about this is civil?

The conversation has only ever been 'civil' when people have agreed - without compromise - with certain members.

Read my first post, everyone. Was I really defending the poem or trying to understand it? And when has trying to understand anything become so wrong? Without trying to understand, we can never truly fix the problem, we just end up flinging slurs around at each other. Does that remind anyone here of anything?

The two comments I made to Jane were in jest. The bra burning thing was a joke - funny or not. If people have really got to the point where that can't be seen for what it is, and it's easier to label me sexist, so be it. The woman's strength comment meant literally that: you are doing nothing to prove how strong women can be by coming back to the thread when you said you were done.

I never got angry or rude ONCE on this thread until I had already been patronised and let an awful lot go. Abbey had already set out a 'how to spot a sexist's handbook' long before I got in a spat with Jane, and insinuations were already flying about.

Jordan, I was not making a universal apology, I was apologising for my part in whatever offense caused but pointing out others' too. Read properly before you try to continually dazzle the p n q community with your cutting wit in future, okay.....pal. Thoughts and prayers, you pompous twit.

I can genuinely say I have never come across a more close-minded 'discussion' forum. Mark, I say again - civil? Are we reading different threads. It seems clear you have edited what you didn't want to read, but typically, when someone gives an opinion that isn't necessarily universal, it isn't answered with 'try another one'. At least not in a 'civil' conversation.

Hellon - thank you for trying at least to understand what I was trying to do when I entered this thread; I won't forget that ever. But don't feel the need to apologise - I'm an adult, and entered this thread willingly.

Michael (Mr Darcy) - thank you so much for everything. That is all I can really say to you.

Maher - No worries (in regards to your message) - keep safe yourself and I'm sorry for the way all this has transpired.

Finally, I am sorry once again to everyone involved on this thread, because I genuinely believe somewhere along the way we have all been hurt and offended. Move on and try to understand. That is all.

*edit - Mark, thank you for backing up my work.

You’re right. I was rude. I even acknowledged it myself and pledged to do better in the future. What else would you have me do?

If Ben feels he needs to leave the site because people disagree with him, that’s on him. I’ve left the site before for similar reasons, it wasn’t a big deal. Not sure what you’re getting on with here.

As for the poem having been deleted…well…good. Hopefully people can take this as the teachable moment that it is.

Name calling! And a dig at reading comprehension. Excellent. Well, I’ve been called worse than a pompous twit before and I will be again in the future no doubt. I’ll take it.

My point still stands. That was no apology.

It was more that the mods never reprimanded you that I was getting at...yes, you apologised but so did Ben. Your apology was accepted Ben's became a witch hunt that's what I'm getting on with.

Well you’re free to come at me if you want, but Andrea and I had our words and settled it the best we could.

Did Ben get censored by mods or have posts removed? If not then I’m not sure I’d call this a witch hunt. People disagree with him because his opinions and behaviours in here have been largely disagreeable. Like he said, he’s a grown man. He can take it.

Anyway this has nothing to do with the original topic of discussion so imma stop hogging airtime.

No...Ben's deleted his account...I hope ye all sleep with a clear conscience tonight.

He made the thread about him ... and over reacted, a lot of what he said was outa line

Think he has ghosts outside of this site to deal with

It sucks Ben left, but that's not the fault of anyone here. He chose that. He could have stopped replying at any time and stepped away... or chosen to listen and be like "hey, I'll try to understand this", instead of replying yet again to insinuate the odds were against him and he was going to be called a sexist either way. Where's the accountability. Several members made incredibly articulate points, explaining in detail. So we have a choice to not engage, or to actively listen and ask pertinent questions while remaining true to the overall discussion and narrative. And not making it about how we're being perceived, even if intentions were good. It's truly enlightening when these discussions can be had and we can learn and be humbled, which did happen for quite a bit of it.

Anyway, off the top of your head, are there any "must haves" you'd reccomend for feminist reading or the history of feminism? Anything that you abide by or authors you follow? Always curious to add to my reading list.

“That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Also for Christ’s sake why do people hide behind excuses?

“Oh I lost a leg in 1999. This poem about ableism is cool by me so that should be enough.”

I’m sore to hear about your traumatic experience but I don’t think it is something that should be used to diminish the seriousness of this topic.

Anyway none of that changes the fact that the poem in question is not beyond being called a gross piece of non-art that didn’t deserve an HM. And tbh it’s so bad that the people who don’t like it don’t give a solitary crap about the “oooh it’s just a poetry site” bs.

Know who else is a poet? Bukowski. And he’s gross. AND 20 bucks says heaps of incels that might like the poem in question would also be huge Bukowski fans.“ Jordan

^ I wasn’t going to join the conversations because I haven’t been feeling well out of lately. It’s hard to process what I am reading and it’s too challenging to make sense out it specially when I am able to see both parts….

Anyways, I came across what you wrote Jordan and I’m irritated. All Andrea has been saying is to leave Maher out of the topic. But the post seem to be focusing on Maher, regardless of what she has been asking. She is fine with discussing the topic of sexism, racism etc but not with continually bringing Maher to the conversation. I read Andreas post last night before she edited it, I don’t see it as an excuse. (Edit: I meant, I didn’t see her sharing her personal experience as some excuse)

Also, I like some of Charles Bukowski poems. Not all of them, but I’m confused as to what you are trying to say with “and 20 bucks says heaps of incels that might like the poem in question would also be huge Bukowski fan?”
So, what if whoever like the poem in question is a huge fan of bukowski? Are you saying I’m gross? (I’m not a huge fan though) but I just want clarification since I’m a huge fan of one particular poem of his. Edit( I mean I’m a huge fan of one particular poem of Bukowski, as per Maher poem I did not like it nor did I like it)

Anyways, Maher could have just change the poem to the explicit section. There was no need to delete it. Anyone could have posted on the poem and write what they disagree with. It would make it a learning experience for those who stumbled upon that piece. Instead of continually trying to bringing it in this thread which seem more like Maher was on trial.

So let's all dismiss Ben and his faults. The guy who yesterday came on and freely admitted to suffering bouts of depression, drinks to much and is hard to live with ..the guy who may just have underlying issues that are far more serious than he will admit, the guy who may need help but was dismissed...."yeah it sucks that Ben left. but that's not the fault of anyone here".

Let's just all move on

In Maher's own words it wasn't a poem rather a conversation he remembered having with a co worker.. he never posted it as art

Nicko,

As you probably know, (or May be not), I consider poetry to be written thoughts. . . Unfortunately, I still haven’t made up my mind as to what a “poem” or “poetry” really is… hopefully, I’ll be able to before I die. “Fingers cross”

Anyways, it’ll be hypocrite of me to say that’s not a poem, wouldn’t it?

I hear you

But is a remembered conversation written thoughts ?

Or just something regurgitated. That would make every written word poetry wouldn't it ?

I'll leave you to work through that :)

“But is a remembered conversation written thoughts ? “

^ interesting. Suddenly, I feel excited and anxious about this question. Look,

The reason why I consider written thoughts to be “poetry” is because I feel the purpose of poetry is to make someone feel or experience something that has already been experienced or that hasn’t been experience.

So, a remembered conversation that then is written would be for me considered written thoughts. After all, that conversation incited so many feelings and it’s shown in this thread. Feeling happy, overjoyed, is not the only feeling that poetry can evoke, right?

A single word can evoke a range of feelings. I’ve been made fun for sharing my view of what poetry is to me. A story is poetry to me… movies… books… mathematical proofs (even though I don’t fully understand some)

I’ve been thinking so much about that through the years but haha I only seem to get exhausted. I can’t really arrive to a conscise idea. Edit ( I get exhausted because at the end of the day, I think everything is poetry and I can’t come up with coherent words to explain exactly why and how)

Good answer .. poetry is different things to different people if it works for you well that's great ... must say I'd struggle with a mathematical equation though.. ha

Excuse me, why is this thread about Ben now? He has things to deal with before chiming in a discussion, it seems. He’s gone... um, well, sad for him, but it’s his choice. He insulted whoever disagreed with him, and then made a victim outta himself, so, yeah, I’ll sleep very comfortably thankyaverymuch.

Maher, cool, you spurn women who’d kill to lure you, because that’s how you think, fine. Impressive. But illustrating that women sexuality is the determining factor for their honor/self-worth/purity is not fine at all.

That coworker was racial, rude and irrational, sure and we made that very clear, but you didn’t handle the situation well. Your response was equally if not even more offensive. When someone insults my gender/race/nationality/etc, I point out that they’re wrong and why they’re wrong, and the negative impact their thoughts have on society. Just like what I did with your piece. I don’t insult their gender/race/nationality/etc back. I didn’t just say “Maher said women are slaves. Men are the slaves, not us!”. Not cool.

I’m very glad you took that poem down, whether you do really believe it was sexist or don’t. Because at least now, I’m no longer a part of a community that promotes sexism and s*ut shaming.

Noura,

As I said, I responded to her out of extreme frustration for the first time after weeks of her quite literally sexually harassing me with no help from management. It's embarrassing enough for a guy to have to approach his managers and tell them he's being sexually harassed by an attractive woman, especially when both his managers are women who made passing jokes about it from time to time. I laugh when I think of it now, but even they were telling me to "just date her" because she's hot. The pretext I had to the post mentioned that a recent discussion reminded me of the conversation - the discussion was with the co-worker just looking back at things from when we used to work together. I digress.
This was the last conversation in a line of convos before it where I had tried to explain why I wasn't interested, but unfortunately she kept pressing for weeks, which is what led to this particular convo. In regard to the train event, no spurning happened there. I didn't even speak to the woman and at the end of that poem I just posed an honest question.

I've already admitted it was wrong as per my conversation with Rania. People sometimes say hurtful things when situations get heated, that's the world we live in. She shamed me in many ways over time, in front of other staff and away from them, just because I didn't want to date her. I shamed her once. I'm not saying what I said was right, I'm saying that's how people sometimes react when they're pushed to a limit. They say things just to be hurtful, even if they don't truly mean it. She said something to me that she knew would hit hard, so I fired back with something I knew would hit hard. Unfortunately, nobody is immune to this.

As I said, yeah, we didn't speak to each other at all for a few weeks but eventually we did and worked things out. We both apologised for what we said and moved on. We're not dating and never did, but we're friends. If she believed I was sexist, she would still be avoiding me now nearly 5 or 6 years later and we wouldn't be checking in with each other every so often.

So I'm sorry that the post offended you and others. I apologised and offered to take it down as soon as I was made aware of people being hurt by it. When Rania suggested I should, as a member and not a Mod, I did so right away. I'm honestly not phased about what anyone here wants to label me as, what got to me was how quickly this became a labelling fest without anyone trying to at least reach out and say "hey mate, this doesn't sit well, would you mind explaining what the deal is please?".

So for the record: No, I do not promote sexism or sexual shaming. I may not approve of a sexual lifestyle for myself and I may not like being hit on or sexually harassed, but that's my preference and mine alone. I will not change that because society thinks I'm sexist for not being promiscuous or assumes that I judge a woman based on her sexuality simply because I'm personally not into that sort of thing. The convo with my co-worker happened after a long line of frustrating events that pushed us both to press buttons that we admittedly shouldn't have. What matters to me is that her and I are still currently friends and in the past 5 or 6 years, she's not referred to me as a sexist.

Can someone please lock this thread?

We have lost one member, possibly another and this thread has broken a few site rules as well. Maybe if another post is made, folks will keep that in mind and the topic can stay on track. Thank you.

“How about buck up and think about the situation from the outside? This is why women have been silent for so long. Because discourse and calling people out are considered unfair for some asinine reason. “

“That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Also for Christ’s sake why do people hide behind excuses?

“Oh I lost a leg in 1999. This poem about ableism is cool by me so that should be enough.”

I’m sore to hear about your traumatic experience but I don’t think it is something that should be used to diminish the seriousness of this topic.”
^
Considering the topic, do you really think a woman who have been through so much would use that as an excuse to diminish this thing she’s been fighting against ? What I see here that you did what you say Ben did, and you were mad about it.

I didnt want to participate again but I had to point this out, as a woman it didnt sit right with me not to.

Hellon, I did not sleep soundly. I slept as if a conversation that was very important to me, and which I was pouring my time and energy into, was completely derailed. Ben derailed this conversation by name-calling, hurling ad hominem attacks at those who questioned him -- some of them sexist, ultimately, which is the saddest irony -- and making dismissive, reductionist 'jokes' about feminism. His final and most powerful derailment, making this thread entirely about him, was threatening to leave and then doing just that. I regret nothing except engaging with him at all, although I never attacked him in any fashion, and I have no specific words to regret writing here. I'm disappointed and exhausted after feeling that we were finally getting somewhere only to be attacked by Ben, and then blamed by you, and possibly others, for his decision to exit the site. Tale as old as time: A woman is blamed for a man's behavior. I'm exhausted.

“The woman's strength comment meant literally that: you are doing nothing to prove how strong women can be by coming back to the thread when you said you were done.”
^
He cemented his sexism with this departing comment. He mocked “women’s strength” because I, an individual, quoted his words back to him. Clearly he doesn’t recognize his own sexist attitudes by doubling down on this statement.

Maher already popped in this thread before the debate began. How was I or anyone to know he wouldn't pop in again? At a certain point, it seemed it didn't matter if he showed up or not because the subject matter is/was worth discussing with or without him. As is perhaps ideal, the conversation was turning away from him, and to the broader issues of sexism that his poem brought to the surface. It was you, Hellon, who were so insistent on his response, and I'm unclear why you didn't message him if you believe he should've been messaged. You messaged Ben to participate in this thread after all. Of course no one blames you for not messaging Maher, nor should they. Further, it's not a rule that a mod inform a member if their honorable mention is being discussed in the weekly contest thread. Maybe making this a 'rule' is worth considering, but it currently is not a rule or expectation.

I would like my voice in this thread to not be erased because I'm a mod. I'm pretty unhappy that I'm being lumped in with the mods, rather than being understood and respected individually and independently. I clearly stated I was responding on behalf of myself and not using 'mod powers.' If I can't speak out on issues that are vitally important to me, such as sexism, without my words being dismissed because I'm a mod, then I'm not sure it's worth being a mod at all. Maybe I'll sleep on that tonight because I sure as hell didn't sleep on it last night, and I know it shows. I'm sure that I'm being "rude and immature," or perhaps "manic and insecure."

If someone wants to start a new thread to get back to the topic of gender, sex, sexism, sexuality, feminism, etc., be my guest. This thread is a mess.

--

EDIT: Hey Star, I agree with you that what Jordan wrote was problematic. He corrected himself and apologized directly to Andrea without excuses or defensiveness, and even said that he would do better. Do you think he can do more?

Someone above -- Everlasting maybe? -- wondered about Charles Bukowski and why he was being brought up. I read a handful of his poems too, ages ago, and liked his style, so I understand your confusion. Then, two years ago, I read all of his semi-autobiographical novels (5? 6?) featuring his alter ego, Hank Chinaski. Reading his books made me quickly realize how horrible of a man he truly is... Rape is a large theme in his writing, from regularly speaking about wanting to rape women to actually raping them. He is a master misogynist, chauvinist, and narcissist. I don't use those terms lightly.

And now I'm thinking about how cool it would be to form a book club on PnQ.

I did not say he could do more, I said now that it happened, it did sound familiar to me, don’t you think? Even if he wasn’t defensive or bitter about it, he could’ve known better, since he was clearly replying to Ben’s posts. And you were all saying it wasn’t about that lady alone, it’s about all of us which I 100% agree with. That’s all I have to say.

I saw Andrea defending the sexism POV and pointed it out. Yeah what I originally said was tactless. But know what? I still feel that her stepping in and saying what she said, the way she said it was a little off. And although I’m sorry that I hurt Andrea’s feelings, I’m not sorry for joining the conversation or pointing out things that I believe to be problematic.

We’re free to disagree. Like I said before, I did apologize, and I did pledge to do better. I understand that I hurt her, and I hope she feels okay about it now and we can move forward.

As for the Bukowski stuff, sure, not all fans are bad people. I’m sure you’re great. But he’s well known in the poetry community to be revered by rabid incels. Maybe people on PnQ don’t discuss this, but it really is a shared opinion. Most of his poetry is disgusting and offensive. He does not like women.

Ben has a very dry sense of humour so most of it went over the top of your head...you need to laugh more Jane, it's been proven that laughter is better than medicine.

Well it went over my head too Hellon and i don't think Jane and I were the only ones
If it was meant in jest telling a sexist joke on a thread about sexism not a good idea...

No one should have to "laugh more" in a thread about sexism, and implying someone should just take things lighter in something as serious as we're discussing isn't okay.

Now THAT made me laugh, Hellon. I don't think I've ever found you funny before now. Hoo boy. Would you like me to smile more too? Maybe I need to get in the kitchen and make you a sandwich? lolololol

Alright, if anyone has a genuine question, like Darren, who was so charming and open in this thread, I'll be around. Or if you want to debate further, I'm all ears, but we should probably open a new thread if so as this one has reached the upper limit.

Ben joked that it would be ridiculous to suggest women taking mens' last names is sexist. Soon I plan to make a thread about the history of this tradition and its place in the modern world. I've discussed this topic at length on other platforms, and it's an important and relevant one.

Gaslighting: verb (used with object), gas·light·ed or gas·lit, gas·light·ing.
to cause (a person) to doubt his or her sanity through the use of psychological manipulation.

Seriously Jordan, you're accusing me of gaslighting for suggesting Jane should laugh more often? It is a proven fact you know that laughter is good for you.

Shakes head and walks away...

This thread has been one of the best I've kept up with for ages. I have to commend Noura, Abbey, Jane, MA and Rania for articulating what Jane called the "overarching global narrative about women and female sexuality." Nice to see support from Mark and Jordan (I've missed you!) Kudos to Darren, also, for realizing he was caught up in the narrative but showing an open mind to new insights.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to have run its course and has far exceeded its limit of posts. Feel free to open a new thread if you wish to continue the dialogue.

I recommend also that you check out MA's thread, "Post-Pride Post" at https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/threads/147629